Bass Stacks

Jul 2, 2015
579
1
18
#81
Feeling really cheesed off with the Velodynes;
They don't all come on when I play music, if they do they come on a different volumes, and the trailing cables around the back are a pesky hazard. I've broken two rca leads in two days

I suspect the Velodynes are on the way out...
 

LL21

Active Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,550
2
38
#82
Feeling really cheesed off with the Velodynes;
They don't all come on when I play music, if they do they come on a different volumes, and the trailing cables around the back are a pesky hazard. I've broken two rca leads in two days

I suspect the Velodynes are on the way out...
sorry to hear...what is on the way in? I wish Velodynes would stay on all the time, but at low volumes, sometimes it does take a big bass thwack to get it to turn on after it has turned off by itself or gone 'to sleep' until the next bass hit. But when i say low volumes, in our case it is level 1 (of 99). At anywhere above 10, we dont have this issue.
 

audioguy

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
2,724
5
38
Near Atlanta, GA but not too near!
#83
My version of a horizontal "stack". These are 4 more of the Seaton F18's in the rear of my room. (I have 2 in each of the front two corners.) With this much headroom, the bass in music is soooooo clean, musical and dynamic. And of course for movies with action, it is very dynamic and explosive.

F18s.JPG
 
Jul 2, 2015
579
1
18
#84
sorry to hear...what is on the way in? I wish Velodynes would stay on all the time, but at low volumes, sometimes it does take a big bass thwack to get it to turn on after it has turned off by itself or gone 'to sleep' until the next bass hit. But when i say low volumes, in our case it is level 1 (of 99). At anywhere above 10, we dont have this issue.
I think I have a few reasons why they are doing different things at odd times.
Firstly there is the issue of the R232 leads that connect the subs to each other to keep them in sync. These trailing spaghetti are a real hazard to passing traffic, and the super long one that connects the two stacks even more so. It makes one wonder if Velodyne's designers have kids or animals- i dont believe they would have gone with this approach if they had. For my application this long run is not practical, so this means the two stacks operate independently instead of all being controlled by one master sub.

With the other kit I have cables run along the floor and then attach to the base of the instrument.
With the stacks these wires are rising vertically and jutting out as they plug into the upper sub, like this:

1499432475468178021062.jpg

I have a 65kg Ridgeback and twice in two days he has run through them when a delivery driver came to the door, breaking two rca leads

Another factor is my subs don't seem to have been built consecutively and I suspect have subtlety different electronics or software, so don't respond in the same way at the same time. When I play music perhaps just one stack will awake from sleep mode, so I manually switch on the other side, only the top one comes on, so I switch the bottom one off at the wall and on again, only now it comes on at a different volume, the left stack seems to come on at the volume I turned it off at (most commonly 12) whereas the right stack will come on at the level Nick eq'd it at (18)
So now I have listened to the same intro three times and am beginning to lose spontaneity.

What I like about the Velodynes;
I love the curvy tapered design of the cabinets, the solid construction and attractive wood finish, and I like the sound....but I suspect more is possible.
However the trailing leads are just unacceptable

So I have been in conversation with Mark Seaton about going with six of his F18's and he has bent over backwards to accommodate my specific requirements, all at a cost (including freight and accessories) roughly equivalent to two Velodynes. I can honestly say that if you are reading this thread considering going down the Seaton route, go for it, you will be dealing with someone very helpful who really knows what he is talking about.
However, and this is intensely personal, I am not a fan of square boxes and sharp corners. My components, from Wavac pre amp to Stella Utopias exhibit curved casework and baffles and this is my preferred design language. I asked Mark about curved boxes and he says that to offer them would more than double his prices, and he understandably wants to offer the best bang for your buck.

So really that leaves three designs on my short list.
Focal sub Utopia has the curved design and would obviously match my speakers. But it has the same bass driver with the same specs as my Stellas, and I want subs that go deeper. Why can't they release a sub built around the 18 inch bass driver of the Grande Utopias? I would bite their hands off. Never mind. Also I suspect we would end up with the trailing wire scenario again, I am asking Focal about this
JL Gotham....is it really better than the Velodynes? Not sure

Top of the list would be a pair of Thor's Hammers.
I'm going to speak with Nick about these when he returns from holiday. The breakthrough came yesterday when I read a thread on here (titled 'Thor's Hammer) and came across the fact that Dave Wilson drives his with Parasound Halo A21 amps, previously I had been thinking in terms of needing to stump up for another Boulder 2060 or even 2050's to drive them, doubling their effective price.
The Parasound amps were available in the UK for £2350 at the time of that tnread, they may be a little more now. Or there are the JC1 monoblocks, which were $6k, not sure what they are now.
While I am not wild about the cabinet design of the Wilson's, (I prefer the Focals), they are acceptable and should get away from the multiple trailing lead scenario whilst moving things along in the sound quality stakes. Since my 2060 has returned i am feeling that the Dd18+'s are not as fast as my main speakers now are, resulting in a thickening of the bass where previously it felt more nimble and cohesive
 
Jul 2, 2015
579
1
18
#85
My version of a horizontal "stack". These are 4 more of the Seaton F18's in the rear of my room. (I have 2 in each of the front two corners.) With this much headroom, the bass in music is soooooo clean, musical and dynamic. And of course for movies with action, it is very dynamic and explosive.

View attachment 33695
Very nice....:cool:
 

Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
319
2
18
42
Chicago, IL
www.seatonsound.net
#86
I think I have a few reasons why they are doing different things at odd times.
Firstly there is the issue of the R232 leads that connect the subs to each other to keep them in sync. These trailing spaghetti are a real hazard to passing traffic, and the super long one that connects the two stacks even more so. It makes one wonder if Velodyne's designers have kids or animals- i dont believe they would have gone with this approach if they had. For my application this long run is not practical, so this means the two stacks operate independently instead of all being controlled by one master sub.

With the other kit I have cables run along the floor and then attach to the base of the instrument.
With the stacks these wires are rising vertically and jutting out as they plug into the upper sub, like this:

View attachment 33707

I have a 65kg Ridgeback and twice in two days he has run through them when a delivery driver came to the door, breaking two rca leads

Another factor is my subs don't seem to have been built consecutively and I suspect have subtlety different electronics or software, so don't respond in the same way at the same time. When I play music perhaps just one stack will awake from sleep mode, so I manually switch on the other side, only the top one comes on, so I switch the bottom one off at the wall and on again, only now it comes on at a different volume, the left stack seems to come on at the volume I turned it off at (most commonly 12) whereas the right stack will come on at the level Nick eq'd it at (18)
So now I have listened to the same intro three times and am beginning to lose spontaneity.

What I like about the Velodynes;
I love the curvy tapered design of the cabinets, the solid construction and attractive wood finish, and I like the sound....but I suspect more is possible.
However the trailing leads are just unacceptable

So I have been in conversation with Mark Seaton about going with six of his F18's and he has bent over backwards to accommodate my specific requirements, all at a cost (including freight and accessories) roughly equivalent to two Velodynes. I can honestly say that if you are reading this thread considering going down the Seaton route, go for it, you will be dealing with someone very helpful who really knows what he is talking about.
However, and this is intensely personal, I am not a fan of square boxes and sharp corners. My components, from Wavac pre amp to Stella Utopias exhibit curved casework and baffles and this is my preferred design language. I asked Mark about curved boxes and he says that to offer them would more than double his prices, and he understandably wants to offer the best bang for your buck.

So really that leaves three designs on my short list.
Focal sub Utopia has the curved design and would obviously match my speakers. But it has the same bass driver with the same specs as my Stellas, and I want subs that go deeper. Why can't they release a sub built around the 18 inch bass driver of the Grande Utopias? I would bite their hands off. Never mind. Also I suspect we would end up with the trailing wire scenario again, I am asking Focal about this
JL Gotham....is it really better than the Velodynes? Not sure

Top of the list would be a pair of Thor's Hammers.
I'm going to speak with Nick about these when he returns from holiday. The breakthrough came yesterday when I read a thread on here (titled 'Thor's Hammer) and came across the fact that Dave Wilson drives his with Parasound Halo A21 amps, previously I had been thinking in terms of needing to stump up for another Boulder 2060 or even 2050's to drive them, doubling their effective price.
The Parasound amps were available in the UK for £2350 at the time of that tnread, they may be a little more now. Or there are the JC1 monoblocks, which were $6k, not sure what they are now.
While I am not wild about the cabinet design of the Wilson's, (I prefer the Focals), they are acceptable and should get away from the multiple trailing lead scenario whilst moving things along in the sound quality stakes. Since my 2060 has returned i am feeling that the Dd18+'s are not as fast as my main speakers now are, resulting in a thickening of the bass where previously it felt more nimble and cohesive
Quick future solution to the turn-on issue so you can get back to the sonic and aesthetic questions:

You had mentioned possibly switching to a Boulder preamp. All of the Boulder preamplifiers have 12V trigger outputs which all of your Velodynes also have. This is the preferred manner to turn the subs on and off with nothing more than a 3.5mm mini-cable to each stack and a link between them. With the Wavac pre you could just get a 12V power power supply plugged into a common and inexpensive trigger distribution block (1 input with 4-8 3.5mm outputs) and plug the 12V brick into a power strip you can flip on and off with one switch. Nick should be able to pull this together for you.

While I understand things get more complicated with the more exotic cabling, there are many high quality, right angle XLR connectors. Right angle IEC power cords are plentiful. You might be able to get the subwoofer cables re-terminated. There are even right angle RS232 cables and adapters to keep things from sticking out from the back of the sub. Some conversion to right angle connectors followed by some double-sided velcro strips to properly dress the cables would make things look much cleaner and make them much less prone to get snagged by your very large dog.

If I ever have some time to experiment/test out some of the ideas I've had for more curvaceous options I think our cabinet builders could reliably deliver, I'll let you know. In thinking further after our messages I have one possibility I'll be checking into with our cabinet shop as well.

As for other subwoofer options, the Wilson Thor's Hammer is probably one of the better performers of those I believe you will find attractive while also offering the deep extension you are after in a more conventional hi-fi offering. The other option would be to talk with Funk Audio in Canada. They have some very capable 18" & 21" designs, and Nathan Funk is quite the artist with his cabinetry and fabrication. Funk Audio would be more of a bespoke option with significant lead time, but still offering an exceptional value for the performance.
 
#87
I don't see the left and right subwoofers in the lower picture; the grills are on?

EDIT: I see that the two photos are gone now (they were upside down). :b
Also, they were very dark, and checking from different screens (laptop, tablet and android) the light varies; on my laptop I could hardly make it.
And sure, they were taken from a camera phone (not the best camera and light). :b
 
Last edited:
Jul 2, 2015
579
1
18
#88
Yes the whole 'spot the difference' game came unstuck, courtesy of poor lighting left handedness and cat

The big change was that I've moved the big pro sound speakers elsewhere, replaced with Vicoustic victotem bass traps, and after the last visit from Nick (and Martin from Velodyne uk) the subs are now positioned inside the main speakers.

This will likely be a temporary arrangement as they block the view out of the windows and I think the sound from the main speakers is impacted.

However,
The lads have fixed my boomy affliction. The bass is now tight, articulate and far more musical, as well as benefiting from a fast-improving Boulder 2060 power amp. The Boulder actually sounded a bit **** when it first returned, kinda muffled with no snap to the bass or slam.
But with a few hundred hours on it it's really beginning to sing.

I'll try some daylight pics, I just like the way the room looks at night and was trying to capture that
 
Jul 2, 2015
579
1
18
#89
15028068077371603102599.jpg
 
Jul 2, 2015
579
1
18
#91
That's my super genius lighting for you :p

Thank you for doing the do.
I popped back to tidy up
 

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