Baffled about computer power

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I doubt Steve is thinking about tweaking or jitter or anything else when listening in the manner he described - I'm certainly not. Rather, it's when I find that I'm no longer listening to the music but thinking about something else that I realise I'm not emotionally connected anymore & it could possibly be because the reproduction system is causing this disturbance.
Analytic listening is a whole different approach & what you are referring to - when the system is being listened to & the sound deconstructed. But this is an analytic form of listening & not the usual mode of listening. At least that's my approach

Excellent point. Another good metric as to whether you have arrived is when you simply cannot listen analytically. The music is too involving and stimulates other areas of the brain that are more pleasurable than the analytical part I guess...

Steve N.

Steve N.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Excellent point. Another good metric as to whether you have arrived is when you simply cannot listen analytically. The music is too involving and stimulates other areas of the brain that are more pleasurable than the analytical part I guess...

Steve N.

Steve N.

Then I suppose I arrived long ago.

Tim
 

JackD201

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A lot of us have. I've said it many times. I could have lived with a lot less but now I have more and I'm enjoying more. What's wrong with that?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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A lot of us have. I've said it many times. I could have lived with a lot less but now I have more and I'm enjoying more. What's wrong with that?

Not a thing. Have fun.

Tim
 

1audio

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Demian, please elaborate a bit if you dont mind. I guess I am clear that you are not talking about everyday noise, such as from tape, from a resistor, etc. You are talking about the "effect" of external instrusions on the ones and zeros? I am not sure I call that noise so much as interferance. We used to call such things agressor signals vs victom signals.

Aggressor vs. Victim is a good description. The noise can modulate the signal both in amplitude and time and can be synchronous (data related) or asynchronous (any un-audio related noise). The effects will be in the analog output, not particularly in the data stream itself. Digital data has what is called noise immunity that is related to its level, this means for 3.3V data (typical of current DAC chips) it would take more than a volt to actually change the data. But it takes a lot less to offset the effective clock timing or mess with the reference voltage in the DAC chip.
 

1audio

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Demian,

What improvements can one expect to hear by upgrading the SMPS on your PK90-USB and PK-100 units with the optional linear PSU?

What I really focused on was isolation. I did everything possible to minimize the coupling between the AC power connections and the power going on to the player. I need to recheck but I think the total coupling is around 100 pF. This plus a low noise power supply design to reduce the noises from the actual 12V supply. I think it helps reduce the system noise and definitely reduces the effects of adding the player to a system. Its works both ways. The digital stuff will send junk back up the power and it can be sensitive to junk on the power. Increasing the isolation will reduce the stuff going back and forth. The rest of the subjective stuff I should leave to someone less involved (I know I am not objective on this aspect).
 

jkeny

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Excellent point. Another good metric as to whether you have arrived is when you simply cannot listen analytically. The music is too involving and stimulates other areas of the brain that are more pleasurable than the analytical part I guess...

Steve N.

Steve N.
I don't fully agree here - I can listen analytically whenever I choose to but I believe there are some people who can't. I liken it to drawing skills - some people just can't analyse what they see in front of them in terms of lines & shadows, they invariably draw what they think is there - children also do this, draw their impression of the scene rather than the scene.

There is nothing wrong with this (it needs to be recognised, however) except in the context of audio & what we are discussing here - if we can only listen in this manner we tend to fill in the shortcomings in the sound stage & actually miss some flaws in the reproduction.

Some consider themselves blessed because they are like this but then why not just listen to the radio & be happy?
 

JackD201

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Phelonious Ponk

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I don't fully agree here - I can listen analytically whenever I choose to but I believe there are some people who can't. I liken it to drawing skills - some people just can't analyse what they see in front of them in terms of lines & shadows, they invariably draw what they think is there - children also do this, draw their impression of the scene rather than the scene.

There is nothing wrong with this (it needs to be recognised, however) except in the context of audio & what we are discussing here - if we can only listen in this manner we tend to fill in the shortcomings in the sound stage & actually miss some flaws in the reproduction.

Some consider themselves blessed because they are like this but then why not just listen to the radio & be happy?

I CAN listen analytically, but I have no patience for it anymore. Don't know exactly how or when I lost it. I used to do it a lot. It is really difficult for me to stick with it for more than a few moments these days. It helps if I listen to music I don't like much.

Tim
 

jkeny

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I CAN listen analytically, but I have no patience for it anymore. Don't know exactly how or when I lost it. I used to do it a lot. It is really difficult for me to stick with it for more than a few moments these days. It helps if I listen to music I don't like much.

Tim
Yes, it's useful when trying to analyse a drawing, to turn it upside down - that way the perception has nothing recognisable to distract one - same as your approach, I guess.
Maybe the fact that you don't have the patience for listening analytically explains your disagreements with those who report hearing differences with various tweaks/changes?
 
I don't fully agree here - I can listen analytically whenever I choose to but I believe there are some people who can't. I liken it to drawing skills - some people just can't analyse what they see in front of them in terms of lines & shadows, they invariably draw what they think is there - children also do this, draw their impression of the scene rather than the scene.

There is nothing wrong with this (it needs to be recognised, however) except in the context of audio & what we are discussing here - if we can only listen in this manner we tend to fill in the shortcomings in the sound stage & actually miss some flaws in the reproduction.

Some consider themselves blessed because they are like this but then why not just listen to the radio & be happy?

A good analog is a movie. If you watch a movie and try to analyze the motion artifacts, unless its a really boring movie you usually get sucked into the movie plot and forget about analysis.

Steve N.
 

jkeny

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A good analog is a movie. If you watch a movie and try to analyze the motion artifacts, unless its a really boring movie you usually get sucked into the movie plot and forget about analysis.

Steve N.
Yes, good example. On my TV which is fed a digital signal from a cable company, I often notice pixelation on fast action scenes. This interferes with my enjoyment of a movie & momentarily snaps me out of my connection with it. I'm sure similar, but more subtle artifacts, occur in audio. Why don't these show up in measurements? I don't exactly know - maybe it's a very low level & variable timing difference between both channels, maybe it's something else?

Edit: Does anybody know of an "industry standard" test that measures timing differences (at psychoacoustically important levels) between channels on the line-outs i.e not the speaker output?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Let's discuss audio technology guys and get off analyzing each other....

It's ok, Amir, I can use a little analysis. :)

I went through a period when I did a lot of analytical listening, John. That's when I formed my views about audibility, expecation bias and elaborate solutions to what often are, in my view (hearing?), non-problems. Come to think of it, that's probably also how I lost my patience for critical listening.

I still listen critically, but now I listen for song structure, arrangements, potential instrument substitutions, phrasing, tonality...the things that help me as a musician. It is sitll not emmersion in the emotion of the music, but it beats the heck out of listening for distortion artifacts.

Tim
 

IanG-UK

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Apr 11, 2011
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It's ok, Amir, I can use a little analysis. :)

I went through a period when I did a lot of analytical listening, John. That's when I formed my views about audibility, expecation bias and elaborate solutions to what often are, in my view (hearing?), non-problems. Come to think of it, that's probably also how I lost my patience for critical listening.

I still listen critically, but now I listen for song structure, arrangements, potential instrument substitutions, phrasing, tonality...the things that help me as a musician. It is sitll not emmersion in the emotion of the music, but it beats the heck out of listening for distortion artifacts.

Tim

Good post.

Does prolonged audio forum participation correlate with use of analytical listening which correlates with fatigue?

whereas

Does minimisation of audio forum participation correlate with adoption of critical or emotional listening which correlates with relaxation?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Good post.

Does prolonged audio forum participation correlate with use of analytical listening which correlates with fatigue?

whereas

Does minimisation of audio forum participation correlate with adoption of critical or emotional listening which correlates with relaxation?

I can only speak for myself. No, forum participation doesn't have a negative impact on my enjoyment of music. But taking some of this stuff seriously could suck the fun out of a birthday party. :)

Tim
 

mep

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Tim-I do believe that you are the official curmudgeon of WBF.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim-I do believe that you are the official curmudgeon of WBF.

I am one of the skeptics, that's for sure. But everything that receives the full brunt of my skepticism has to qualify on two levels: 1) I don't hear it. 2) Those who do hear it have no verified or, evidently, verifiable evidence of its audibility. My position is not even remotely unreasonable. My skepticism is, in fact, the only rational reaction to the two conditions I've described, and it's only negative if you disagree. If you agreed with me, Mark, I wouldn't be a curmudgeon, I'd be a voice of reason.

The bottom line? And I apologize for the bluntness of this; I believe in expectation bias much more than I believe in the objectivity of subjectivists. Hear what you will and enjoy it. Expect me to believe in what I don't hear, and you'll need to show me something more than the immeasurable results of wishful thinking.

Tim
 

amirm

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I have been asked to close the thread. Seeing how there is no technical talk, I will go ahead and do that. If you have something else to talk about, feel free to start a new thread.
 
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