Audio Magic Nano-Liquid Fuses---mikey likey :)

[treitz3]

Hello, Mike. I'm interested in ordering one of the fuses you have graciously offered your observations on. I would, however, like to clarify a bit on which one you had ordered. I see that they have two different types of fuses and I'd like to know which one it was that you ordered.

NEW Nano-Liquid Premium Fuses $69 / ea. for most values. GMA, AG, Slow Blow, Fast Blow
NEW SUPER Fuse (Nano-Liquid) $105

I take it that it was the Super Fuse based solely on the price but I'd like to verify this before ordering.

Tom

 

[Mike Lavigne]

While I appreciate a rant, and have done so myself, if you want to invoke me personally, please quote me specifically enough so that both of us know what we are discussing.

I looked at my previous posts in this thread, and you quote a response I had to what Moderator Tom had said. And I quoted him exactly and bolded it.

I am also, the only person in this thread or any other here on WBF to describe the technical reason for a change in the audio signal due to a fuse. And the likely audible results if one has a system and ears good enough to hear it, although, actually, I could demonstarte the effect pretty easily with anyones system with fuses in the locations I mentioned them. That was post #62 .

I do not expect you to present some sort of criteria for what your particular ear/brain interface creates from air vibrations. But, when someone declares something best, I think its natural to have some discussion.

How many times have I said I am an advocate of tone controls and procesors of sorts on this forum, and that I enjoy the "sound" of my SET amp and my solid state gear. The fact that I know many of the technical reasons they sound different, and have tried to relate that on this forum in no way detracts from the reality that we all like what we like, Mike.

ok, we'll dissect this if you like.

first; not trying to be disrespectful but you knowing the technical reason that the fuse improved things has nothing to do with our comminications here.

here the post of Tom's that you responded to;

Hello, 1rsw and thank you for your honesty. If it weren't for folks like you, Mike L. and others, folks would never hear of real world experience. Here's my take. If folks want measurements and scientific proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nano-Liquid fuses make a difference, then by all means, they should go out and purchase them and do the tests the way they deem necessary.

Like yourself and others on this thread, it all boils down to the improvement or perceived improvement/deficiency thereof. Electrical qualifications aside.

Tom

and here is your response to Tom that i responded to.

I dont know about that. If this is whats best forum, and we change the title of the forum to whats best according to myself, then fine, what you say, while true as you sayit, would be fine.

And I doubt anybody here denies that our ear/brain interface is what we want to be happy and please us,

however,

IMO there needs to be some review and discussion about whats best and to even reach that conclusion some sort of criteria are needed. Whats best is a challenging thing. Whats the best fuse then, we got about 5 brands out there now....

and here is my response to your post;

your perspective on whether the 'balance' of skepticism to respect for listening impressions on WBF is correct is not shared by me, and i suspect not shared by others as well.

i get really tired of all the angst directed at listening impressions to 'prove it' or 'measure it' or 'see your shrink' in one fashion or another. obviously; since i'm still here the community is more valuable to me than that irritation.....but only by a little. clearly one of the forum administrators is in this thread calling me out for measurments and testing. so this situation is not changing....and he's supposedly the 'subjective' one. it's a big part of the dna here.

and if we start down the road of 'some sort of criteria are needed' i'm outahere.

so there it's all laid out to see.

Tom (treitz3) was appreciating the efforts of people to talk about experiences, the improvement or percieved improvement that people heard. that it up to others to do their own proving. you then questioned the vaidity of a simple presentation of an experience....that somehow that would be a corruption of what WBF is.

then....the capper....

IMO there needs to be some review and discussion about whats best and to even reach that conclusion some sort of criteria are needed. Whats best is a challenging thing. Whats the best fuse then, we got about 5 brands out there now....

'some sort of criteria are needed' sent me into orbit. if you want a button down gestapo forum they are out there for you. i can point you to one. i can tell you there is no middle ground to the thought police direction and no 'listener' will put up with it.

so help me to understand where i missed your understanding here....respectfully....please. i don't see it.

 

[RBFC]

Tom,

The manufacturer should offer a minimum panel of specifications with the device, so that UL certifications, etc. can be documented. Mike shouldn't have to do any testing unless he feels like doing so. Neither should any purchaser of a device. I don't personally do mileage tests on my vehicles, nor does anyone I know (although we sometimes collect "anecdotal" mileage estimates on trips). The consumer should not be responsible for performing testing: there are no standards in place for this type of experimentation. My interest is seeing if there is any obvious electrical specification that might explain the difference, just as a high-current amp performs better with low-ohm speaker loads....

Lee

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hello, Mike. I'm interested in ordering one of the fuses you have graciously offered your observations on. I would, however, like to clarify a bit on which one you had ordered. I see that they have two different types of fuses and I'd like to know which one it was that you ordered.

NEW Nano-Liquid Premium Fuses $69 / ea. for most values. GMA, AG, Slow Blow, Fast Blow
NEW SUPER Fuse (Nano-Liquid) $105

I take it that it was the Super Fuse based solely on the price but I'd like to verify this before ordering.

Tom

yes; it is the 'Super' level fuse that i purchased. i described how to order here.

the super fuse is $100 on that website.

 

[RBFC]

And, I'm the guy (admitting this once again on open forum) who scored 100% on identifying the green felt pen treatment on CDs. A sales manager for Warner Bros. brought two identical discs of Richard Goode playing piano sonatas on Virgin Classics, can't remember which composer... The sources were in the other room with him and I sat in the listening room at my old home. I could not see which disc he played, nor communicate audibly or visibly with him to get any clues. He played them in random order (not A,B,A,B,A,B) and I correctly identified the treated CD every time. This incident made me a believer in the limitations of objective testing.

Lee

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Originally Posted by treitz3
Hello, 1rsw and thank you for your honesty. If it weren't for folks like you, Mike L. and others, folks would never hear of real world experience. Here's my take. If folks want measurements and scientific proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nano-Liquid fuses make a difference, then by all means, they should go out and purchase them and do the tests the way they deem necessary.

Like yourself and others on this thread, it all boils down to the improvement or perceived improvement/deficiency thereof. Electrical qualifications aside.

Tom

Here(above quote as actually bolded) is what I referred to, and only one sentence, as I bolded it. My response was to that sentence, I thought that was a technique here to point out what part of a post one was responding too. Of course a persons opinion matters and also, there needs to be discussion, as I tried to point out. I have to admit that I dont put the time and effort into these posts as I would in a published document,etc. I surely, through sloppiness, can leave the wrong impression sometimes.

Please look at all the other posts by me in this thread and hopefully you will not find anything putting down your observations. Frankly, if all we did was tell how things sounded on this forum I would not be here.

I assure you that your interpretation of what I said is not what I mean.

I do and will advocate that there are limits to hearing but that does not mean one does not hear what they describe, in fact, at best I could say that theoretically I could not see something as being audible,( and I am not talking about a fuse thing which i did say will be audible in a post this thread given the right conditions), but something like what fas42 might say.

When Moderator Tom said "electrical qualifications aside", that excluded the entire reproduction system. Unless we all have live, unamplified performers in our rooms. So, it struck me worth commenting on, and maybe my expectation biases filtered what he meant too.

Sincerely, Tom

Tom,

i've read your response to Tom (treitz3) a few times, trying to isolate just the bolded part or not.....and trying to see any difference in how i view your response if it's in the context only of the bolded part. i'm not trying to give you a bad time personally.....i'm responding to the content of your post. honestly, what you wrote looks the same to me responding to either the whole or the bolded part.

when you say.....

I dont know about that. If this is whats best forum, and we change the title of the forum to whats best according to myself, then fine, what you say, while true as you sayit, would be fine.

.....whatever it's reacting to, you are inferring that we ourselves don't deserve to have our listening opinions respected by themselves. and while i don't like the direction you went with that, to me i respect your opinion to feel that way as it's a matter of opinion......

however, when you combine the above with this part.....

IMO there needs to be some review and discussion about whats best and to even reach that conclusion some sort of criteria are needed. Whats best is a challenging thing. Whats the best fuse then, we got about 5 brands out there now....

......it does not matter what you are reacting to, it's a direction that i felt compelled to strongly denounce.

i cannot see how those words can be misconstrued.

understand i don't think your were being personally critical of me or my opinions, or at least that was not the focus of my reaction to you. it was your vision of how the forum should work that struck the nerve.

if you are backing away from that perspective then we are good. let's listen to music and have a great weekend.

best regards,

Mike

 

[treitz3]

When Moderator Tom said "electrical qualifications aside", that excluded the entire reproduction system. Unless we all have live, unamplified performers in our rooms. So, it struck me worth commenting on, and maybe my expectation biases filtered what he meant too.

Hello, tomelex. My point was not to exclude the entire reproductive system. Please look at the post below...

Don't you think that it would be wise to test "specialty" fuses to be sure they meet their specifications? What if the gauge of the wire is so small that it affects R value and blows early?

Test the things right and let the measurements stand. Then, debate the audibility after standard electrical qualifications have been met.

I have purposely included the link within the quotes to the posts for your review. Lee had mentioned above that...

.....after standard electrical qualifications have been met.

I then responded in reference to what Lee had pointed out above "Like yourself and others on this thread, it all boils down to the improvement or perceived improvement/deficiency thereof. Electrical qualifications aside". I hope this makes sense to you and clarifies any confusion you may have had with regards to my statement.

Tom

 

[jazdoc]

Well I had the opportunity to listen at Mike's tonight.

A couple of caveats:
#1- To date, I haven't really cottoned to the MM7's and Dart 458 combo but was withholding judgment until break-in was fullycompleted
#2 -I hadn't been over in 3-4 weeks, so I can't say for certain how much change I can attribute to break-in (but if it was break-in, it would have to be the most spectacular in human history) versus the new fuses.
#3- I'm a skeptic and a cynic

But good Lord, it sounded fabulous! We played all sorts of stuff; including "Mulligan Meets Webster", ORG 45rpm, an original demo 6-eye mono of Ellington's "Blue's In Orbit", Dave Douglas' new release "Be Still", Amadou and Mariam "Folilia", Dirty Projector's "Swing Lo Magellan" and "Bloom" by Beach House...and it all sounded great. I've been witness to a number of changes at Mike's, some forward, a number sideways and a few backwards, but this was as big of an improvement as I've ever heard in his system.

So to paraphrase Mars Blackmon "Mikey, it's gotta be the fuse!"

 

[MarinJim]

I really try my hardest to understand some posts, and fail miserably. To put it simply, have any fuse companies held demo rooms at any audio shows to prove their claims? In other words, a before and after? I don't know too much, but I do know what I like to hear.

 

[Orb]

I really try my hardest to understand some posts, and fail miserably. To put it simply, have any fuse companies held demo rooms at any audio shows to prove their claims? In other words, a before and after? I don't know too much, but I do know what I like to hear.

To me this is a lose-lose; the demo room is even less of a controlled environment than a person's own room and equipment.
If differences are noticed it could be put down to many biases and related cogntive perceptions (yes agree applies at home as well but some are removed), if differences are not heard can be put down to lack of listener time with the system and testing (using specific music-instrument notes) to identify behaviour and parameters, again along with biases affecting non-perception.

I really do not understand why cable and mains companies go to the trouble to do these demos at shows, I doubt it changes anyone's mind either way
And yes I do feel most of those demo setups are flawed for many reasons even ignoring if fuses-cables do/don't make a difference.
Just my take though and appreciate some do enjoy listening at them.

Cheers
Orb

 

[jazdoc]

I dunno guys. We aren't talking about buying a $50k amplifier without a demo. If you want to know if upgrading fuses will improve your system, give them a try. Relative to costs of most WBF participant's systems, it seems like the veritable 'fart in a windstorm' to try out 1 or 2 fuses and see if it subjectively improves the sound...

 

[MarinJim]

I dunno guys. We aren't talking about buying a $50k amplifier without a demo. If you want to know if upgrading fuses will improve your system, give them a try. Relative to costs of most WBF participant's systems, it seems like the veritable 'fart in a windstorm' to try out 1 or 2 fuses and see if it subjectively improves the sound...

You miss the point. I have a box full of cables and what-not, that was suppose to improve the sound.

 

[TBone]

I dunno guys. We aren't talking about buying a $50k amplifier without a demo. If you want to know if upgrading fuses will improve your system, give them a try. Relative to costs of most WBF participant's systems, it seems like the veritable 'fart in a windstorm' to try out 1 or 2 fuses and see if it subjectively improves the sound...

Sorry, jazdoc, but the "they are cheap, so buy 'em, give them a try" logic doesn't cut it with my audiophile sensibilities. That contention has been used far to often to solicit funds from audiophiles without any realistic guarantees.

And it's not just "one or two fuses" ... consider my system ...

Mono Amps = 12
Pre = 1
CDP = 1
PLC = 5

total = 19 (~$1,900)

Should I expect $2k worth of improvement?

tb1

 

[garylkoh]

It sounds like jazdoc thought that the fuses made more of a difference in Mikey's system than the MM7's and Dart 458. If you read his caveat, he hadn't

really cottoned to the MM7's and Dart 458 combo

and was waiting for break-in,

but if it was break-in, it would have to be the most spectacular in human history

With the fuses,

good Lord, it sounded fabulous!

So, now I'm wondering what the fuses would have sounded like in Mike's old system, and could he have saved $300,000 if he had tried the fuses before the new speakers and amplifiers

 

[Steve williams]

It sounds like jazdoc thought that the fuses made more of a difference in Mikey's system than the MM7's and Dart 458. If you read his caveat, he hadn't and was waiting for break-in,

With the fuses,

So, now I'm wondering what the fuses would have sounded like in Mike's old system, and could he have saved $300,000 if he had tried the fuses before the new speakers and amplifiers

when I read Jazdoc's post the same thought occurred to me but I didn't have the brass cajones to ask the same question

 

[jazdoc]

Sorry, jazdoc, but the "they are cheap, so buy 'em, give them a try" logic doesn't cut it with my audiophile sensibilities. That contention has been used far to often to solicit funds from audiophiles without any realistic guarantees.

And it's not just "one or two fuses" ... consider my system ...

Mono Amps = 12
Pre = 1
CDP = 1
PLC = 5

total = 19 (~$1,900)

Should I expect $2k worth of improvement?

tb1

I guess my approach would be to purchase a couple of fuses, try them in the CDP and pre-amp and see what happens. Additonal fuse purchases would be dependent on perceived changes/improvement.

 

[jazdoc]

It sounds like jazdoc thought that the fuses made more of a difference in Mikey's system than the MM7's and Dart 458. If you read his caveat, he hadn't and was waiting for break-in,

With the fuses,

So, now I'm wondering what the fuses would have sounded like in Mike's old system, and could he have saved $300,000 if he had tried the fuses before the new speakers and amplifiers

My bad if I gave that impression. From the get go, the MM7/Dart 458 was more impressive than the MM3/Dart 108 combo. Now since I can't spin the earth backwards and go back in time a la Superman, I guess we'll never know for certain how much better the MM3's would have sounded in Mike's room with the new fuses. Hopefully, some MM3 owners will report their experiences with these fuses.

As to whether the $300k in amplfier and speaker upgrades (and they are definitely upgrades) are worth it, that's not a question I can answer other than to say there is definitely a substantial increase in performance.

Mike's current set up is silly good and I'd have to rate what I heard earlier this week amongst the best (if not the best) sounding musical reproduction I've ever had the privilege of experiencing.

 

[KeithR]

I'm going to start developing nano-screws to replace all the screws on preamp covers, or any other case work. I'm going to call them "micro vibration controls" and license the technology to Synergistic Research for distribution. He can quantum tunnel them for an even larger effect as part of the deal.

I'll charge $20/each so I can be sure all the six-figure systems have to have them. And I almost forgot, I'll give them to Bob Levi at PS for review since he's the tweak expert--after my soon to be rave review, I expect orders in the 1000s per week after that.

 

[GaryProtein]

I'm going to start developing nano-screws to replace all the screws on preamp covers, or any other case work. I'm going to call them "micro vibration controls" and license the technology to Synergistic Research for distribution. He can quantum tunnel them for an even larger effect as part of the deal.

I'll charge $20/each so I can be sure all the six-figure systems have to have them. And I almost forgot, I'll give them to Bob Levi at PS for review since he's the tweak expert--after my soon to be rave review, I expect orders in the 1000s per week after that.

Make sure to create a unique screwdriver head so you can sell a surgical quality screwdriver with them for at least $500 so once the screws are installed, they can't be tampered with.

 

[KeithR]

I love sarcasm, sorry.

Actually I could care less about the fuse stuff. But I think MikeL could do a series of A/B tests at the minimum. And if he doesn't want to take some heat, then why did he post this in the general forum with emoticons in the title

I predict $500 fuses soon btw.