Apogee vs Electrostatic

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day maties, just a quick update from the intended Apogee session soon to be;

A few corrections after another brief chat:
1. these are the Apogee Studio Ribbon Array- I think they have some sort of dynamic drivers at the bottom, similar to the Grand versions...
2. The amplifiers are infact the Sumo 10/M monoblocks. The Anromeda's are not longer with him. These 10/M amps have been fully modified with Hovland caps (very high grade throughout the circuit) and KSL caps in certain stages of the power supply and signal paths, including the speaker's cross over units.

He did not want to divulge too much about the KSL caps, since these are propriety caps to Kondo. He happens to have some sort of trust with Kondo San for many years... I just happen to learn that he has a pair of Ongaku's, which are trying to be upgraded towards the Kogaru circuit. Said that if I was patient enough and didn't talk too much on this forum, he might actually "allow" me to listen to this very special pair of amplifiers. Boy! this is harder than I thought... first I was so excited to finally get in touch with this guy, now I have to have permission to listen to something that I prefer, which is tubes. Anyway, I guess patience is virtue, and I better not say too much about the mods, as he wants to preserve this type of mod, so that his system is very unique I guess...

I did always like the rendition of Apogee's, they are simply no doubt one of the best in pure music delivery. As already pointed out by, yes the older original ones are quite different to the restored ones. I have found the restored ones to be more robust and sound much tighter and faster, with a definite stronger impact in midband slam and lower bass.
I would if finances permitted, like to have a smaller pair of restored Apogee's just as a second flavour, as the CLX's are not going to be a viable project for me simply due to price. At nearly 33 grand for a new pair here, the wife wouldn't even think of it. That type of funds have been put aside for my daughter's higher education.

Even If I did get the CLX's, I would have to change my power amplifier (again!) as I don't feel that the CJ Classic 60SE would drive it to full potential- any suggestions here?

As for the smaller Apogee's, perhaps a small Caliper or Stage would be nice, and I think I can at least get away with some quiet late night sessions from the Classic 60SE. I feel this 60w KT120 tube special Class AB should be adequate within limits- any suggestions here?

Thanks for the reply User211, I will try to absorb as much info as possible during this audition and see what I could possible do towards the future, it all depends on how I can access service as when required by Graz...

Sorry I forgot to mention Awsmone (who also owns the CLX's) in a large room. I really need to audition the CLX's with full tube amps as the front end. I have yet to come across such a config, where someone either has a highly regarded tube stereo amp or monoblocks. My best experience would be a wonderful CJ ARTsa in triode or the Classic 120 driving the CLX's. Or even an ARC Ref150 in that case. The Ren15A sadly was very disappointing, the chap here does not seem to be a true audiophile...

I will bench mark the CLX's top end and midband during the demo, as for bass the CLX's are way different. That bass speed and agility seem to be in a league of its own, as with ribbons that bass is quite different. I don't either! I guess it's just a different flavor.

Also the Melbourne Hi Fi show is this weekend, will be there on Sunday at the Martin Logan room.
Cheers to all, and enjoy your panels, respect!
RJ

 

[gilles13]

Those of you (us) who have original Apogees are hanging on by a thread. We pamper them to keep them alive and avoid the death knoll of that dreaded buzz, knowing full well that it is inevitable and will begin visiting us soon.

So that means, if you have an Apogee you probably have the updated version with new ribbons manufactured by Graz in Australia.

However ... the old vs new speakers sound different to my ears. I have updated the crossover in my Duetta Sig's, replacing caps and resistors and placing them in an outboard box. It improved the sound but it is still not as tight as a pair with replaced ribbons.

That being said, the sound is still reference quality for me, and I've heard a lot of stat's, horns, cones and etc. speakers. I use a McCormack DNA500 amp (no getting around the need for quality power), but I have tubes in front of it in my preamp. That makes a difference too, I believe.

As for dynamics, I hear it, but it is not the same as with a cone speaker and can never approach a horn, that's why I use a pair of stereo subs to give me some punch that an open baffle ribbon cannot produce (and to help preserve my ribbons I cut the bottom end at about 80Hz).

As for setup, yes, that last quarter inch makes a difference. Good setup is not good enough. You need to be neurotic, but it will pay off. And they are a one person speaker. Don;t get me wrong, they sound great off axis, but they will make you melt when you are in the sweet spot.

To BobM.
Hello, how would you describe the difference in sound between old and Graz ribbons? Thanks.

 

[bonzo75]

To BobM.
Hello, how would you describe the difference in sound between old and Graz ribbons? Thanks.

Having spoken to restorers, the bass of the new is multiple times better. The mids are also better, but Henk uses the old ribbon only on the grands (which were the latest from Jason Bloom) and he does not see the need to replace them. For other models he said he will never go with the older ones. Also, he retains the crossover points as original just replacing the components, while the U.S. And UK restorer also change the points

 

[Argonaut]

Hey RJ.....It sounds as though you are most fortunate to have been granted an audience with this particular Audiophile Deity, perhaps best to practice your bowing and scraping now, before you are in the presence of such a Luminary!

Hmmmmm, I quite appreciate your dilemma, particularly in regard to the RRP on new larger ML's, even ex demo or pre owner CLX's are going to be tough to swallow given the exchange rate on the AUS $.

I am Unsure whether still currently available however ML produced a CLX 'Light' in the Classic, that used to retail at £15999 here in the UK, might slashing that by half for a pre owner example bring that closer to your spending zone ?

Some light reading...... http://http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/loudspeakers/65-reviews/252-martin-logan-clx.html

You know RJ......Perhaps looking around for a pair of Duetta II or Sig, in good order sonically, might be the way to go, that way you could upgrade ribbons and crossovers within a time frame and budget that you are more comfortable with.

 

[Loheswaran]

HAs anyone in the UK (preferably south east) got a well set-up pair of Duettas and/or Scintillas that I can come and listen to please? I have wanted to hear them in full flow for a awhile now, and have never had the chance to - PM me if possible.

 

[Don C]

Apogee was sued by Magnepan for patent infringement and lost. The settlement agreement included stoping further manufacturing of speakers. That is why Apogee is gone.

 

[gilles13]

https://www.stereophile.com/news/10407/
It,s ADS, the firm which bought apogee which close it because they think they cannot earn enough money with this.
In fact it seems that apogee loudspeakers were not enough pricey to become a profit success.
Warranty was expensive, change of ribbons,freight...

 

[Don C]

https://www.stereophile.com/news/10407/
It,s ADS, the firm which bought apogee which close it because they think they cannot earn enough money with this.
In fact it seems that apogee loudspeakers were not enough pricey to become a profit success.

ADS only serviced the older Apogees. The original Apogees were made in Australia. ADS never manufactured them.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Now this is very interesting news indeed! I have always wondered high & low, how on earth and in God's name can something sound so marvelous, suddenly shut down! Was it pests? or perhaps a biological bug that wiped out all the techs in the Apogee lab... Was it profits/ sales/ mis- management, sexual harassment, a case of Asbestos in the roofing, what the hec was it... now it makes sense!

If the sound is and was that super why couldn't they just continue doing what they do? in which case Bose is still around and they don't sound that good at all, in fact quite a margin away from Apogee. I think that was an insult, not even a comparison Bose & Apogee!

So Magnepan decided to flex its muscles...
ha! This reminds me of other legal cases such as, Manley & VTL, Mac & McIntosh, and so on... but they're still around. Now with Apogee resurrected, I am sure Maggie folk are going to be on edge...
RJ

 

[Ron Resnick]

RJ, did I miss something? It is absolutely great that Henk and TSW and Graz and other restorers are reconditioning old Apogee speakers, but that hardly counts to me as a resuscitation of the Apogee company and brand.

Graz is a delight to talk with and his replacement ribbons are amazing and superior to the originals, and Graz has single-handedly breathed new life into old speakers, but we have been waiting for his truly new-from-the-ground-up Definitive year after year since 2004 and it seems that it just ain't going to happen.

 

[gilles13]

History of apogee
http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/spe...models/apogee-acoustics-timeline-and-history/
Jason Bloom par Ken Kesler

http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/oldforum/003040.html

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hey RJ.....It sounds as though you are most fortunate to have been granted an audience with this particular Audiophile Deity, perhaps best to practice your bowing and scraping now, before you are in the presence of such a Luminary!

Hmmmmm, I quite appreciate your dilemma, particularly in regard to the RRP on new larger ML's, even ex demo or pre owner CLX's are going to be tough to swallow given the exchange rate on the AUS $.

I am Unsure whether still currently available however ML produced a CLX 'Light' in the Classic, that used to retail at £15999 here in the UK, might slashing that by half for a pre owner example bring that closer to your spending zone ?

Some light reading...... http://http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/loudspeakers/65-reviews/252-martin-logan-clx.html

You know RJ......Perhaps looking around for a pair of Duetta II or Sig, in good order sonically, might be the way to go, that way you could upgrade ribbons and crossovers within a time frame and budget that you are more comfortable with.

Yes Harly, that sound like a good idea thanks.

I will not be purchasing anything now, this will be a future venture towards the latter half of 2018 or early 2019, if at all. I really do like what the Ethos is delivering at the moment with the added power and finesse from the CJ amps. I might as well just sit back and enjoy to the fullest.

I need to have a chat to Graza sometime again, it's been nearly 10 years since we last spoke. I need to talk to him to work something out but for that I need to be ready and not fool around. If I'm correct, the last chat we had, he quoted something like 16 grand for a new pair of his ribbon synergy's. I was wanting to first listen to pair but I cannot seem to find anywhere here in Melbourne who has one, other than my tech friend but they are not Synergy's.

Anyway, I guess patience is the key here. That's why I really don't mind the smaller ones as a second pair, like the AA Omicron's they were quite nice but not really Apogee sound.
Will be in touch, cheers mate
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

RJ, did I miss something? It is absolutely great that Henk and TSW and Graz and other restorers are reconditioning old Apogee speakers, but that hardly counts to me as a resuscitation of the Apogee company and brand.

Graz is a delight to talk with and his replacement ribbons are amazing and superior to the originals, and Graz has single-handedly breathed new life into old speakers, but we have been waiting for his truly new-from-the-ground-up Definitive year after year since 2004 and it seems that it just ain't going to happen.

Yes absolutely right. I think the issue here is the sheer capital involved to start up something like that.
He does make the Synergy ribbons or signature something, that's the one that he quoted me for 16 grand and would take about 3-4 months to make. I'm not so sure of he has made anything else other than restore.

Perhaps, restoration at this point is a better idea, since the main frame is pretty much the same, it is the internal wiring, bracing, glues etc that make the overall structure of the ribbon elements more stable. I guess a full structural change like what Quad did with its 2905 series would be the change we're looking for. However, although Quad did the structural changes on the frame, the dam panels remain the same, pretty much mediocre...

I do know for a fact that the maggie panel elements changing over to Quasi-ribbon has made them more stable as well, and a true ribbon on other areas. This is probably why the new 3.7i and 20.7's sound way better than its earlier versions. Graz is probably keeping a close eye on these designs. I am sure he hasn't come up with anything from the ground up for good reason. This also involves a company to put together and not just a tech who has abundant knowledge in ribbon transducers. This would involve Admin, payroll, marketing, finance and the works! I sincerely don't think Graz wants to invest in such a business model just yet.

Same with John Hall, the repair guru of Quads. He is one of the most knowledgeable when it comes to these iconic stats, and he knows how to restore them very well! But he will not build one from scratch, he says this is far too much work, and guess what? he doesn't even have Quads anymore in his personal system, rather they are maggies! (MG3.7i)

Cheers Ronnie, and when I next chat to Graza, I will ask him this question.
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day maties,

In Re. to Gaza, I managed to learn a few things, quite similar to the last chat I had with him in 2010. Gaza does make a pair of similar looking/designed Apogee's but the price quoted to me 7 years ago has now been revised from 16 grand to nearly over 20 grand. The majority of his work is focused on restoring the ribbon elements, and hardly anything to do with building new ones.
He also does not have the extra capital to start a manufacturing process/ corporation to be a company and have a fully functional running outfit. He is quite content doing just the restorations and is happy with the amount of work he has, so far...

Therefore, from that brief insight, all I can see for the future is restoration and nothing new coming around. Hence, the issues of service & reliability, which means I will have to spend on a second hand (very old) pair of Apogee's and then give it to Gaza for restoration. So this means somewhere around 5-6 grand for a pair of old Apogee's and another 6 grand or so to restore/rebuild them. In average that's about 12 grand all up and could be even more depending on the model and the upgrades/rebuilds done on them, hence the price is not fixed.

With that in mind, no, I will not be considering Apogee's. I rather stick to a company that has been around for awhile and is still in operation and continues to grow. That will be Martin Logan for me at this point, with the CLX's or Ren15A in mind. I am also considering the Avant Garde Uno XD's because this is a completely revised AG horn system, where they have certainly come a long way with DSP and parametric EQ settings for room adjustments, and this makes a huge difference! Not only does it make the room to speaker interaction better but also the integration even more seamless between bass drivers to horns.

If someone who has only heard the previous iterations of the Uno & Duo and was rather disappointed, I strongly recommend them to audition the new XD series, they are very different in every way!

If not for the look of horns, which I really don't fancy, I would have finalized my order with the Uno XD's on that Sunday at the Melb Hi Fi show. Now I have to test or at least try to arrange more demos and see if this system can out-perform the Ethos, and if so by how big a margin. For now all I can say is that the Ethos is reproducing beautiful tunes at a different level having the Classic 60SE driving it- with KT120's, Teflon caps, Vishay resistors & all the "SE" upgrade goodies. I have also done a similar SE upgrade on the PV15 linestage as well, therefore the synergy between pre & power is marvelous, and this really comes out superbly on the stats! In which case, as the good wife says "why change at all?"

That's about it for now, and have a good one to all.
Cheers, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

The Apogee Studio Ribbon Array – slightly modified…

Well here it is maties! Finally, the audition/listening session has taken place, much of which was with SS amps and not the beloved tubes (Ongaku’s) that I would have preferred. The claim being that the Ongaku’s are indeed more “gentle in sound” but take a while to get going… hence did not have the time to attend to them. Also a few more parts are required for upgrading, which is in progress.

First of all, I only have permission to mention a few things i.e. Re. to mods. Hence, certain brands, types of wiring, anchors, ground connections, caps, resistors, power supply, cables and interconnects, including ribbon elements + magnets will not be addressed in detail. There have been only a handful of visitors to this place, simply because the rest are too nosey, and he wants to keep this as a one of a kind setup, and boy was it one of a kind!

Preamp: Kondo Audio Note G- 70, power amps: Sumo 10/M 150w class A monoblocks, all source components McIntosh- digital playback, transport & dac (heavily modified to Audio note parts). Analog: Michel Gyrodec with Rega Aria phono stage (same one I have, Hooray!)

Amplifiers modified from power supply to all caps, resistors and internal wiring, including output devices. Brands used from Hovland, KSL and Vishay. McIntosh dac modified with similar caps, including transport used from Meitner. McIntosh chassis used because of build quality.

Apogee speakers (the most interesting modification I have ever seen) internal wiring, cross overs/parts all modified to the above brands mentioned, used in critical signal paths. Pure silver wiring and pure silver solder used where necessary. Speakers sit on 3 spikes, two fixed and one at rear (in tri-angle config) for adjustable tilt. Speakers then sit on steel frame which are anchored to the floor using specialised standard bolts, hence cannot be moved once positioned. Total weight of steel frame and spikes holding speakers 50kg. This is a rock-solid stand-mounted design I have ever come across for a panel hybrid speaker system. You literally cannot move the speaker.

Above equipment used has been chosen for simplicity and ease of upgrade and not according to price category. He does not believe that price range should be similar when putting together a system, it is rather each individual component that is required to do its job and function in a certain way, hence the choices made on these brands and modified accordingly. The Apogee’s have been restored only on the ribbon elements. Magnets, frames and wiring have been done all personally. Therefore, only 30% is a restored ribbon panel, the rest 70% is custom made to personal specs and personal choices made on circuits, transformers and top-quality parts.

As the sessions unfolded, I actually couldn’t get away and as a result I was late to report to work that afternoon! I also went back a second time and will be going again on Sunday for a longer session. The sound I must say was like no other, absolutely flawless. Not to mention the staging, holographic effects, and dynamics were superb! The greatest thing for me was the way the soundwave is projected, with sheer force when called for and a subtle gentleness within a fraction of a second, every minute detail is heard! Speed, transparency, agility and response, nothing to fall short on and the bass integration is just marvellous! Hence, now I believe the hybrid design can be further enhanced / perfected. It all depends on the designer’s cost and where they want to retain their price points.

The advice given was whether I was that into it? Given my current priorities, I can see that this is basically a full-time project because those modifications cannot all be done at once, rather overtime. For example, the mods on the caps and power supply in the amps are specifically done to match the response time of the speakers, focusing on slew rate/rise & fall times for ampereage. This is only one secret ingredient to Kondo designed amplifiers. The rest cannot be mentioned…
The jumper cables from cross over elements to panels to bass drivers are of a special silver wire and once again caps, resistors and internal wiring is of a specific brand. The overall cost done on a single speaker amounts to 15 grand, hence close to 30 grand just for modifications!

I was also advised that if I wanted to upgrade from the Ethos to the next level, to consider the Ren15A, as this is the closest approach to Martin Logan’s ultimate hybrid in par excellence, unless I had enough funds for the Neolith’s. Although I am still very passionate about the CLX’s, his reaction to the CLX’s was obviously not in high praise, since he prefers hybrids, claiming they have been designed to work together in unison, at the same time focusing on a particular area of the freq. spectrum to full potential, minimizing the stress affect be driven full range, and then come together in perfect harmony by the choice of carefully selected parts, almost like a work of art, an intricate portrait in fine detail.

So that’s about all I can say and have to say, I was in total awe. Whether I can do these mods on my Ethos would be a nice project, let alone have the time… But for now, I still prefer the CLX in its simplicity factor and the standard design coming out from the ML factory, works fine for me. As for now, I will just sit back and enjoy what I’ve got! After all, I’ve had the pleasure and honor of listening to one all time superb system to date!
Cheers to all, RJ

 

[bonzo75]

I am in favor of hybrids where Logan is concerned so far.

I don't understand your costs. Henk and others give restored duettas, with Graz ribbons, Mundorf etc crossovers (cost goes up for Duelund), superbly rigid frame, starting at 7k Euro going up with duelund, WBT, etc but not much. Divas start at 12k, scintilla 11 and FR 18. This is not only the restore but includes the speaker. Lissnr's superb duetta, easily the best system I heard in NY (Marty's in NJ) costs 15k USD.

Btw, this is what drives me about the Apogees "The sound I must say was like no other, absolutely flawless. Not to mention the staging, holographic effects, and dynamics were superb! The greatest thing for me was the way the soundwave is projected, with sheer force when called for and a subtle gentleness within a fraction of a second, every minute detail is heard! Speed, transparency, agility and response, nothing to fall short on and the bass integration is just marvellous!"

So you hit it bang on.

 

[christoph]

Hi RJ

Did I understand you correctly, that this Apogee Studio Ribbon Array has all new midrange-tweeter ribbons and bass panels?
As far as I know, Graz does NOT produce bass panels for Apogee Stage and also NOT for Apogee Studio Grand/Studio Ribbon Array.

Also you say the Apogee you listened to was a Studio Ribbon Array and you say it is a hybrid, but the Studio Ribbon Array is "only" the dipole panel part of an Apogee Studio Grand (that I do own).

Can you please elaborate if I misunderstood you?

Do you by any chance happen to have pics of that wonderful Apogee you heard?

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I am in favor of hybrids where Logan is concerned so far.

I don't understand your costs. Henk and others give restored duettas, with Graz ribbons, Mundorf etc crossovers (cost goes up for Duelund), superbly rigid frame, starting at 7k Euro going up with duelund, WBT, etc but not much. Divas start at 12k, scintilla 11 and FR 18. This is not only the restore but includes the speaker. Lissnr's superb duetta, easily the best system I heard in NY (Marty's in NJ) costs 15k USD.

Btw, this is what drives me about the Apogees "The sound I must say was like no other, absolutely flawless. Not to mention the staging, holographic effects, and dynamics were superb! The greatest thing for me was the way the soundwave is projected, with sheer force when called for and a subtle gentleness within a fraction of a second, every minute detail is heard! Speed, transparency, agility and response, nothing to fall short on and the bass integration is just marvellous!"

So you hit it bang on.

Yes Bonz, that was a marvelous sound indeed.

I have to say though the costs do add up, if you happen to see what this chap has actually modified (including the amps), it seems the cost could be far more. Like I mentioned before, there are certain areas I cannot divulge simply because he doesn't want anyone to know... Upgrade / modified areas: include speakers, stand mounts, special spikes, special anchors, cross overs, upgraded parts for both speakers & amps, power supply, internal wiring, soldering points, cables/interconnects and the list goes on... even the isolator and power board, plus power cords, I think I have gone over the line!

Enough said! In summary, this is a highly dedicated system that was solely made with the Ongaku amps in mind. The main focus was to modify the Sumo amps to sound like the SET Gaku's but with SS slam, driving a pair of ribbon transducers that can benefit not only from the added power but also power with superb control and a form of synergy that seems to match extremely well with the speakers, perfectly blending all elements.

This is basically the studio grand in a smaller package but built like a tank and made to perform like a bullet, hence surpasses the any sluggishness or difficulty in the response from a larger panel such as the studio grand's. I have heard the studio grands and they are great, however you require a huge amount of heft to get those ribbons to move at a certain speed. Whereas with this system, everything moves!

Having said that, the time and effort put into the revamp project is beyond my comprehension. I do not have the time nor money to do this, on top acquire a pair of Apogee's for restoration... Therefore, when compared to the other alternatives available that are available ready to go, I still prefer the CLX's and ML Hybrids for that matter. I could be content with either of these systems but with what has been done to them and put into, whether it is justifiable, I really don't know... because if that was the case, then just imagine modifying the CLX's from top to bottom, plus including a few bass drivers in the mix, drive them with top line Kondo amplification and wow! another marvelous project indeed.

It certainly was a wonderful thing to experience and take in, but something that I personally don't have the time for.
Cheers, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Hi RJ

Did I understand you correctly, that this Apogee Studio Ribbon Array has all new midrange-tweeter ribbons and bass panels?
As far as I know, Graz does NOT produce bass panels for Apogee Stage and also NOT for Apogee Studio Grand/Studio Ribbon Array.

Also you say the Apogee you listened to was a Studio Ribbon Array and you say it is a hybrid, but the Studio Ribbon Array is "only" the dipole panel part of an Apogee Studio Grand (that I do own).

Can you please elaborate if I misunderstood you?

Do you by any chance happen to have pics of that wonderful Apogee you heard?

Yes, it seems a bit confusing at first and trying to picture this system and its modifications...
What he has done is incorporated the Bass driver sections of the Studio Grand into this system. Therefore, the stand mounts and steel frames holding this entire panel, also sits on top of these dual bass drivers, that are locate side by side, like two jet engines- hence he has created a true hybrid BUT a highly customized one like no other.

According to him, there are others with Studio ribbon array's who have also placed the bass drivers into their systems for that added heft/punch in the bass. However, as to how far have they succeeded in this design remains to be reviewed. He also did bi-amp the system at first, a few years back but said this muddled the sound and was not an easy task to get all the elements right from driving tweeter/mids with the Gaku's and Sumo's on the bass. Although he claims the sound was very dynamic, it lost musicality by a huge margin.

Therefore, the secret ingredient to this updating the panels to perfection with various elements and wiring to match the Gaku's sound then match that upgrade on the amps, and finally the crossovers simply for the bass to panel integration to take place seamlessly. The Sumo's do a marvelous job and the Kondo G-70 preamp is stunning! Cost of that preamp? dono't even ask... Ribbon elements have been modified not restored, this includes the array placement and magnets. Like I said Graz has only done 20-30% and nothing more, if at all even less! He won't go into more detail on what he has actually done with the ribbons and its elements but whatever it is, the sound reproduced is one of a kind custom made.

This is similar to the Quad's stacked! Now I remember that sound... but with the added bass heft to it. Pictures? yeah right! I have already said far more than what was agreed, so I better log off and call it a day. All I can say is that "sky is the limit" when mods are concerned, and you can really go bananas!

With that in mind, I am very content with the ML hybrids and for that matter in full range stats, the CLX's are still the overall favorite for me, simply because they cost far less than this mega project and they play beautifully!
Cheers mate and have a good one, RJ

 

[bonzo75]

Hi, it might have been a great sound, but while apogee restores can be different this seems a very different speaker