Apogee vs Electrostatic

[christoph]

Thank you for the extensive answer, RJ

 

[morricab]

Yes, it seems a bit confusing at first and trying to picture this system and its modifications...
What he has done is incorporated the Bass driver sections of the Studio Grand into this system. Therefore, the stand mounts and steel frames holding this entire panel, also sits on top of these dual bass drivers, that are locate side by side, like two jet engines- hence he has created a true hybrid BUT a highly customized one like no other.

According to him, there are others with Studio ribbon array's who have also placed the bass drivers into their systems for that added heft/punch in the bass. However, as to how far have they succeeded in this design remains to be reviewed. He also did bi-amp the system at first, a few years back but said this muddled the sound and was not an easy task to get all the elements right from driving tweeter/mids with the Gaku's and Sumo's on the bass. Although he claims the sound was very dynamic, it lost musicality by a huge margin.

Therefore, the secret ingredient to this updating the panels to perfection with various elements and wiring to match the Gaku's sound then match that upgrade on the amps, and finally the crossovers simply for the bass to panel integration to take place seamlessly. The Sumo's do a marvelous job and the Kondo G-70 preamp is stunning! Cost of that preamp? dono't even ask... Ribbon elements have been modified not restored, this includes the array placement and magnets. Like I said Graz has only done 20-30% and nothing more, if at all even less! He won't go into more detail on what he has actually done with the ribbons and its elements but whatever it is, the sound reproduced is one of a kind custom made.

This is similar to the Quad's stacked! Now I remember that sound... but with the added bass heft to it. Pictures? yeah right! I have already said far more than what was agreed, so I better log off and call it a day. All I can say is that "sky is the limit" when mods are concerned, and you can really go bananas!

With that in mind, I am very content with the ML hybrids and for that matter in full range stats, the CLX's are still the overall favorite for me, simply because they cost far less than this mega project and they play beautifully!
Cheers mate and have a good one, RJ

"According to him, there are others with Studio ribbon array's who have also placed the bass drivers into their systems for that added heft/punch in the bass"

Yes, it was known as the Apogee Studio Grand. Christoph has a pair...

 

[Zero000]

Sounds like this guy's extremism has put you off. That's a shame, and Graz is perfectly capable and probably very willing to build you a pair of speakers from the ground up I expect.

People complain and say they are waiting for such and such model to appear, but basically these speakers are handmade and none fall into reviewers hands.

Those prepared to take the risk on making an order will doubtless get want they ordered and be massively happy with it. That takes a leap of faith.

Was he quoting you 20K Au for a Synergy type loudspeaker? That's a great price if so, but I do believe it wouldn't use neodymium magnets as the early versions did. Working with them is a nightmare, apparently. Make a mistake and you need several tonnes of force (well, a lot) to correct it, LOL.

 

[christoph]

"According to him, there are others with Studio ribbon array's who have also placed the bass drivers into their systems for that added heft/punch in the bass"

Yes, it was known as the Apogee Studio Grand. Christoph has a pair...

And funny enough, I don't use the subwoofer part on my SG because I think the SRA sounds better on it's own in the bass
After all the SRA/SG panel goes way below 30Hz :b

 

[Zero000]

And funny enough, I don't use the subwoofer part on my SG because I think the SRA sounds better on it's own in the bass
After all the SRA/SG panel goes way below 30Hz :b

I'm a strong believer in panel only Apogee bass.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

yes, agreed the full range ribbon bsss is outstanding on its own, and basically why I prefer the CLX's driven full range as well, no subs!

having said that and pointed out all the marvelous attributes of this totally radical custom made design, which is not even an Apogee / sumo / kondo original , rather a completely different and separate from the norm. there was a critical area where the clx's exceeded this huge project, and that was in the midrange and extended highs. I just happened to have a third session with these this afternoon, being my day off and whiles the wifey & kiddo were at the mall, I spent a good 4&1/2 hrs listening very intentively! I played the most familiar tracks that I'm used to since we both have similar tastes, my conclusion was that sheer transparency and openness in the midrange and extended airy highs are reproduced on the clx's like no other, just marvelous!

The major area of the modified Apogee radical is merely the bass and this is top to mid and all the way down, the bass response is like a bullet! The mids & highs blend seamlessly well and creates a perfect balance but the bass outclassed the clx's by a good margin.

at this point of my life, I simply don't have the time nor means to embark on such a project, let alone find a used pair of Apogee's, which I firmly believe are completely outdated, hence obsolete. The only thing I could think of is the very old pair of Diva's we had 20 years ago... shipping them all the way from colombo to Melbourne, yeah right!

btw, with my upgrades in amplification, with the Classic 60se driving the Ethos in full swing, I don't see any point in changing anything, and being able to justify the spend, until I move into our new house. There I could get a better sense of how my current system responds and I have a very strong feeling that it will outperform the level at which it's currently delivering...

Cheers , and have a good one & enjoy your panels! RJ

 

[Zero000]

Glad you enjoyed yourself and have sorted out what to do in your own mind. Following instinct is usually the way to go.

 

[audioguy]

Just found this photo of my most memorable speakers --- from about 1985. I upgraded from this stereo Krell amp pictured to dual mono-blocks Krells. I think they were MDA 300's if I recall correctly.

Kick myself for ever selling these things. (Not sure why this photo was in black and white). The room had no "official" acoustic treatment but the drapes and furnishing and the carpet and fireplace and the vaulted 20 foot high ceilings and ..... just made it all work -- perfectly !!!

 

[christoph]

Hello dipole lovers

After seeing in @microstrips footnote that he now uses Apogee Duetta Sigs as interim Speakers and knowing that he also uses/used big Soundlabs, I thought it is time to resurrect this thread and ask microstrip about the differences between the Apogees and the Soundlabs.

With what amps are you driving the two different Dipoles, microstrip?

 

[bonzo75]

Hello dipole lovers

After seeing in @microstrips footnote that he now uses Apogee Duetta Sigs as interim Speakers and knowing that he also uses/used big Soundlabs, I thought it is time to resurrect this thread and ask microstrip about the differences between the Apogees and the Soundlabs.

With what amps are you driving the two different Dipoles, microstrip?

Oh wow hadn't noticed Micro's signature. That is quite interesting. Doubt in his room he will get the scale from the Duetta Sigs that he is getting from the Soundlabs, and if his are not restored by Henk, he might not get the midrange either.

 

[bonzo75]

I am interested in listening to that new Soundlabs reviewed in Dagogo that is Duetta size.

 

[microstrip]

Hello dipole lovers

After seeing in @microstrips footnote that he now uses Apogee Duetta Sigs as interim Speakers and knowing that he also uses/used big Soundlabs, I thought it is time to resurrect this thread and ask microstrip about the differences between the Apogees and the Soundlabs.

With what amps are you driving the two different Dipoles, microstrip?

The Duetta's are living tonight - an interesting sound, some fun, but an heavy mistake ... No possible comparison with Soundlab's, except for bass slam, where they are winners. The Soundlab's immerse you in the performance in a way the Duetta's can't. IMHO great for rock and pop instrumental, not my cup of tea. But a friend fortunately loved them ...

The best I could get from them was using the Parasound JC1's - they love power and bass control. The Lamm M1.2 was nice but did not match them in drive.

The speakers are mint, measure perfectly, but not modified in any way.

 

[bonzo75]

The Duetta's are living tonight - an interesting sound, some fun, but an heavy mistake ... No possible comparison with Soundlab's, except for bass slam, where they are winners. The Soundlab's immerse you in the performance in a way the Duetta's can't. IMHO great for rock and pop instrumental, not my cup of tea. But a friend fortunately loved them ...

The best I could get from them was using the Parasound JC1's - they love power and bass control. The Lamm M1.2 was nice but did not match them in drive.

The speakers are mint, measure perfectly, but not modified in any way.

Thanks for the power and bass control vote - And people try to drive them with SETs. I have found both Martin Logan hybrids (mine and UK Paul's) and analysis audio to be more involving than some duettas (no comparison on bass). However, when a duetta gets it right, it exceeded - like in the case of Lissnr's Duetta, but then UK Paul's modded Logans were slightly better. Bigger apogees and Scintilla (due to pure ribbon) are a different level. Soundlabs - the one heard in Italy, a Majestic 845 with Spectral 10 + 90 in a massive room (owner is a 70+ year old, one of the biggest distributors in Italy, long time distributor of Spectral and Boulder) was fantastic. Just simple cheap streamer dac, it was in his TV living room.

 

[Zero000]

Bad post.

 

[Zero000]

Thanks for the power and bass control vote - And people try to drive them with SETs. I have found both Martin Logan hybrids (mine and UK Paul's) and analysis audio to be more involving than some duettas (no comparison on bass). However, when a duetta gets it right, it exceeded - like in the case of Lissnr's Duetta, but then UK Paul's modded Logans were slightly better. Bigger apogees and Scintilla (due to pure ribbon) are a different level. Soundlabs - the one heard in Italy, a Majestic 845 with Spectral 10 + 90 in a massive room (owner is a 70+ year old, one of the biggest distributors in Italy, long time distributor of Spectral and Boulder) was fantastic. Just simple cheap streamer dac, it was in his TV living room.

I know Martin Colloms thought the Duetta was a better speaker than Scintilla, all in original factory form many years ago, of course.

I know a refurbisher who thinks Duetta is better.

It is certainly more practical.

To microstrip - Parasound A21 (one down from the JC1 monos) is also an excellent solid state Duetta driver, with a good valve pre. The best of many, many SS amps I have tried. Without the valve pre (I was using an EAR868, but any good valve pre should work), I couldn't really listen to it. Which is interesting.

 

[bonzo75]

I know Martin Colloms thought the Duetta was a better speaker than Scintilla, all in original factory form many years ago, of course.

I know a refurbisher who thinks Duetta is better.

It is certainly more practical.

To microstrip - Parasound A21 (one down from the JC1 monos) is also an excellent solid state Duetta driver, with a good valve pre. The best of many, many SS amps I have tried. Without the valve pre (I was using an EAR868, but any good valve pre should work), I couldn't really listen to it. Which is interesting.

And I know that Henk, Graz, Christoph, Florian (the other grand owner who owned all the models) and a few others think scintilla is much superior, also to diva. Anyway point is we have heard these and you haven't. You should. Visit Lichtenstein. There are a couple of awful scintillas out there too

 

[christoph]

I know a refurbisher who thinks Duetta is better.

It is certainly more practical.

Is that by any chance the same refurbisher who has NEVER refurbished a Scintilla?

thanks high hanging grapes MUST be sour

 

[christoph]

The Duetta's are living tonight - an interesting sound, some fun, but an heavy mistake ... No possible comparison with Soundlab's, except for bass slam, where they are winners. The Soundlab's immerse you in the performance in a way the Duetta's can't. IMHO great for rock and pop instrumental, not my cup of tea. But a friend fortunately loved them ...

The best I could get from them was using the Parasound JC1's - they love power and bass control. The Lamm M1.2 was nice but did not match them in drive.

The speakers are mint, measure perfectly, but not modified in any way.

Thank you for your extensive answer, micro.

But if you had maybe spent a tenth of the time and effort it took you to extract good sound from your dcs stack (your own words), you would maybe think differently about the Duetta Sigs...

 

[bonzo75]

Thank you for your extensive answer, micro.

But if you had maybe spent a tenth of the time and effort it took you to extract good sound from your dcs stack (your own words), you would maybe think differently about the Duetta Sigs...

I do agree all apogees need a lot of work. But with a room as big as his (or yours), less than a FR or grand won't do. He is looking at a final speaker (though his final can change)... While duetta is a stepping stone (like, say, the Sasha is for Alexandria owners)

 

[Zero000]

Is that by any chance the same refurbisher who has NEVER refurbished a Scintilla?

thanks high hanging grapes MUST be sour

Er.. he's done 4 pairs and is on his fifth.