ANOTHER series of mat/clamp comparisons.

[spiritofmusic]

Looks like the Stack Audio Serene mat will be going on my list.
Tbh, I really do want to try it with their Stabilizer, as a pair designed to work together.
I'll be using a 1mm thick Teac Washi Paper sub mat underneath it, taking the combined thickness to 4mm.
I actually quite like this Washi sub mat under my current Acoustic Revive RTS-30 mat as well.
So, four mats with four pucks/clamps, to compare.
What fun I'll have in OCD hell, lol.

 

[Funkart]

I had considered the Funk Firm mat. Certainly at 5mm thick it'll work here versus the 2mm Les Davis one which just isn't practical.
Thanks for reminding me about the Funk Firm.
Re whether these things *actually* make *meaningful* differences, all I can say is going from my stock Trans Fi Audio Reso mat to the Acoustic Revive RTS-30 mat I'm currently using has been a night and day improvement.
I'm somewhat biased against Funk Firm after what was in the end an unproductive experience using Arthur's Houdini cartridge de-coupler.

Good day guys.
I stumbled on this as a result of one of your members querying APM's weight and its suitability. I'll start with a FYI: Given the smount of snake oil, smkoe and mirrors in this industry, I'm creating a new series of videos on YouTube that painstakingly does through what I consider the main stumbling blocks to good sound. They are all based on physics and the in-house R&D. I've created them so that anyone can verify the results for themselves.
The first three are already out - it was meant to be two but the usual negative comebacks forced another short repost. As I said, anyone can verify the results for themsleves.
Here's what throws me: I do years of research. The physics is good and the arguments are consistent. 90% of people then agree with it all. Yet, you still get backseat drivers who think they know it all and disagree. Well, if you can show me i've got the physics wrong, I'll be the happy to own up. But if you can't...

The next one is on Houdini and Eeze-Lign and Cobra, as well as trying to remove people's anxiety when it comes to fitting arms. These are the most feared jobs in turntables. My job is to remove that fear. As you'll see, Eeze-Lign does just that.

After that, it's the subject of mats and it does strip away a lot more industry myths! For now, to answer a couple of points, APM is indeed different to the 5mm mat. Achromat is bonded to a glass sub-plate. Overall, it's 7mm thick. Given people's feedback, I'm now working on a revised version. If it delivers, it'll weigh in at around 500g and be a couple of mm thinnner, making it more suited to SL1200's shorted spindle height. Hope that clears up a few points?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Good day guys.
I stumbled on this as a result of one of your members querying APM's weight and its suitability. I'll start with a FYI: Given the smount of snake oil, smkoe and mirrors in this industry, I'm creating a new series of videos on YouTube that painstakingly does through what I consider the main stumbling blocks to good sound. They are all based on physics and the in-house R&D. I've created them so that anyone can verify the results for themselves.
The first three are already out - it was meant to be two but the usual negative comebacks forced another short repost. As I said, anyone can verify the results for themsleves.
Here's what throws me: I do years of research. The physics is good and the arguments are consistent. 90% of people then agree with it all. Yet, you still get backseat drivers who think they know it all and disagree. Well, if you can show me i've got the physics wrong, I'll be the happy to own up. But if you can't...

The next one is on Houdini and Eeze-Lign and Cobra, as well as trying to remove people's anxiety when it comes to fitting arms. These are the most feared jobs in turntables. My job is to remove that fear. As you'll see, Eeze-Lign does just that.

After that, it's the subject of mats and it does strip away a lot more industry myths! For now, to answer a couple of points, APM is indeed different to the 5mm mat. Achromat is bonded to a glass sub-plate. Overall, it's 7mm thick. Given people's feedback, I'm now working on a revised version. If it delivers, it'll weigh in at around 500g and be a couple of mm thinnner, making it more suited to SL1200's shorted spindle height. Hope that clears up a few points?

Is that Arthur of FunkFirm?

 

[Shuggie]

Looks like the Stack Audio Serene mat will be going on my list.
Tbh, I really do want to try it with their Stabilizer, as a pair designed to work together.
I'll be using a 1mm thick Teac Washi Paper sub mat underneath it, taking the combined thickness to 4mm.
I actually quite like this Washi sub mat under my current Acoustic Revive RTS-30 mat as well.
So, four mats with four pucks/clamps, to compare.
What fun I'll have in OCD hell, lol.

I would recommend adding the inexpensive Zavfino 1877Phono EHX-Leather record mat to the mix, plus Zavfino's Lycan 270 record weight. The leather mat is less than 2mm thick, and its performance is system dependent, but when it works, its effect on all aspects of musical reproduction is quite wonderful. The Lycan 270 weight has enough mass to provide some mass damping of the record, without overburdening the turntable's bearing. I did compare the Lycan 270 to a friend's Stack and on my turntable, there was no contest - the Stack was clearly better than no weight, but the Lycan brought colour, control, majesty to the party. Interestingly, when I added some additional mass to the Stack, its performance approached that of the Zavfino.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I would recommend adding the inexpensive Zavfino 1877Phono EHX-Leather record mat to the mix, plus Zavfino's Lycan 270 record weight. The leather mat is less than 2mm thick, and its performance is system dependent, but when it works, its effect on all aspects of musical reproduction is quite wonderful. The Lycan 270 weight has enough mass to provide some mass damping of the record, without overburdening the turntable's bearing. I did compare the Lycan 270 to a friend's Stack and on my turntable, there was no contest - the Stack was clearly better than no weight, but the Lycan brought colour, control, majesty to the party. Interestingly, when I added some additional mass to the Stack, its performance approached that of the Zavfino.

Yes, but an interesting comparo would have been Stack mat and stabilizer versus Zavfino mat and weight.
Interesting take on the pros and cons of mass when it comes to record weights.
Those using super heaviness (amongst other attributes) eg the Stillpoints, Dalby, Arya etc, absolutely have their proponents.
This Stack, and the Origin Live that I'm currently using have next to no mass at all, working on very different principles.
Maybe there's something to be said for a mix of the two, ie a Stack Serene Stabilizer with *some* added mass.
Or maybe this would negate the whole principle of vibration dispersal within the stabilizer that Stack swear by?

 

[Balle Clorin]

I just want to share some mat experiments...

Things like reflexions and microphony and feedback are hard to measure..while difference in frequency response is easy, a 2 mm difference in thickness affects the VTA and response as shown below

or is it the more compliant mat the affect the cartridge-to-vinyl resonance





But trying different mats is seems like Thickness has a major effect, via VTA that effects both channel balance and crosstalk...


The above is on my cheap DD TT, on my Michell Gyro best results are without any mat, probably the Delrin platter is a good thing, always use the Michel clamp!!

My personal thinking is that a soft compliant may mat damp singing aluminum platters, but the the reflextions from the vinyl record would add a spectrum of resonances which are not good. Better to have a dead platter/delrin/synthetics and couple the record tight to the high mass platter to make is as stable and inert as possible

 

[spiritofmusic]

First platter mat/weight has arrived today, the Stack Audio Serene mat and stabilizer puck.
Plenty of information on their website, but in a nutshell the mat is 3mm thick, a flexible silicone type material, with four small protrusions/domes which effectively act as "springs".
The stabilizer puck is a more involved affair, incorporating a thin silicone layer that faces the LP, the body of the puck partially filled with tungsten particles, the idea being vibrations at the interface via the thin layer excite the particles, converting to heat.
I ended up first trying the Stack puck with my existing Acoustic Revive RTS-30 mat (replacing my Origin Live Gravity One puck), and then in concert with the Stack mat.
Photos of all of these up next...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Existing Acoustic Revive mat and Origin Live puck.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Various photos of Stack mat and puck

 

[Kingrex]

I just want to share some mat experiments...

Things like reflexions and microphony and feedback are hard to measure..while difference in frequency response is easy, a 2 mm difference in thickness affects the VTA and response as shown below

or is it the more compliant mat the affect the cartridge-to-vinyl resonance


View attachment 160977


But trying different mats is seems like Thickness has a major effect, via VTA that effects both channel balance and crosstalk...
View attachment 160978

The above is on my cheap DD TT, on my Michell Gyro best results are without any mat, probably the Delrin platter is a good thing, always use the Michel clamp!!

Glad to hear it. I have a bare delrin platter too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I just want to share some mat experiments...

Things like reflexions and microphony and feedback are hard to measure..while difference in frequency response is easy, a 2 mm difference in thickness affects the VTA and response as shown below

or is it the more compliant mat the affect the cartridge-to-vinyl resonance


View attachment 160977


But trying different mats is seems like Thickness has a major effect, via VTA that effects both channel balance and crosstalk...
View attachment 160978

The above is on my cheap DD TT, on my Michell Gyro best results are without any mat, probably the Delrin platter is a good thing, always use the Michel clamp!!

Luckily I've got reasonable scope to vary VTA on the fly re going from 5mm thick Acoustic Revive mat to 3mm thick Stack mat.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Background to this experiment. My analog front end has become a bit of a Frankenstein's Monster of a project over (lucky?) 13 years.
I've modded/upgraded the bearing, plinth, footers/isolation, motor/speed controller, the arm/armwire, LPSU for the cartridge electronics.
And have made both incremental and large strides.
What has become apparent as I've made this journey (ploughed a lonely furrow), is that some element of harshness/graininess has lingered, most noticeably on solo piano music.
And thus this has been the last area for me to try and address, and reduce at least if I can't fully eliminate.
Moving from stock Reso-mat incorporating 12mm high Delrin pods that the LP sits loosely on, to the Acoustic Revive RTS-30 mat with Origin Live Gravity One puck, has been an interesting exercise in mainly positive outcomes with maybe a nagging doubt in a couple of areas, that doubt fuelled by a Jeff's Place review that highlighted presentation differences between this mat and the hard Spec mat, and feedback on this forum that I could do better than the Acoustic Revive.
Hence my move to trying four platter mat/weight alternatives.
And the Stack combo being the first to arrive...

 

[spiritofmusic]

First step was to simply try the Stack Stabiliser puck on my Acoustic Revive mat (simple replacement of the Origin Live puck).
Truth be told, the Origin Live puck didn't bring that much to the party in the 18 months I'd been running it.
But putting in the Stack puck was quite a wow moment from the very first grooves of music.
A real decluttering, defuzzing of the sound, a proper cleaning up of gauziness and aggressive edginess.
Initially the adjective that came to mind was "polite". But that sounds like dynamics are softened, energy dissipated.
Not at all, more that a hint of lack of control in the presentation that I had been used to was evident.
Let's call it more "order".
Most noticeable in the higher frequencies as cymbal work became more defined, and harshness noticeably banished.
I was not expecting such an immediate and perceivable improvement.
FWIW, my mind was drawn to the excellent GP Monaco 3.0 TT system I'd heard recently, which is a real champion of controlled energy and low noise.
Next up was trying the mat and puck together (as I'm sure the designer Theo of Stack Audio mainly intends them to be used), adjusting VTA for the 2mm shortfall in thickness of the two mats.
And a real synergy between the mat and puck as this clarifying effect was extended further.
Hugely impressed by the duo, no area where my existing mat and puck are superior.
The extra order and lowered noise allows greater immersion into the music, and less awareness that a system is playing, deepening overall enjoyment via greater resolution from a quieter background and less mechanical artifacts nagging as the music plays.
A fantastic result for the Stack duo.
And a very high bar for my other mat/weight duos to try and clear, the Hexmat Absolute, Black Forest Audio Däd, and Spec AP-UD1.

 

[spiritofmusic]

One very noticeable thing is that in comparison to the Stack combination, the Acoustic Revive/Origin Live is deffo darker sounding. Not such that treble info is obscured, more that the sound is just more lower mids oriented.
More critically, and what really sells the Stack duo, is that it absolutely does a better job of reducing distortions, lowering noise, clearing hash and gauziness.
And a more even handed frequency presentation rather than one anchored lower down, feels more neutral, transparent and musical.

 

[djsina2]

Acoustic Revive was muddled in my system. Ranked last in the mats I’ve tried.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Acoustic Revive was muddled in my system. Ranked last in the mats I’ve tried.

I'm more aware of that now since I'm getting a superior comparison. I certainly like what it did well at in my system, as an antidote to the stridency I had using my stock Reso-mat.
But I cannot deny, the Stack mat/stabilizer trounces it. I very much see these two as a system, complete solution.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Acoustic Revive was muddled in my system. Ranked last in the mats I’ve tried.

What others did you try?

 

[djsina2]

What others did you try?

Recently I’ve used fo.Q, SPEC, Dereneville, Audio Tekne, and TEAC between two different tables. Each have their own requirements. The best is the Audio Tekne but it’s 10mm thick and not easy to implement. I like using that on my CSPort table. I got rid of the SPEC and Acoustic Revive. For my Audio Tekne turntable, which already has a full carbon platter, I alternate between fo.Q and Dereneville depending on which cart I use.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The Audio Tekne mat looks a real beast, 1cm thick and 1kg weight.
A good one for the TT that needs stronger lats and deltoids.

 

[Yeti]

How is the TEAC Washi mat if used at the top, white side up without a weight or clamp? The white side has raised random fibres, the grey is flat.
This is my favourite mat and its application on two of my decks (PTP Lenco and Townshend used without the trough and dished platter notwithstanding) but not on the Artemis which has 4mm of acrylic over a couple of mm of paper in a recess and maybe that’s just too much paper. The ring of the high notes from piano music sounds wrong to me with acrylic plus weight and acrylic with no weight loses bass definition. A Herbie’s Way Excellent mat, no weight, replacing the acrylic on the Artemis had a good stab at those high notes and bass was OK but dynamics suffered a bit.
The Washi is a bit inclined to lift with static but easy to catch and a couple of drops of Tergikleen in the Degritter keeps it at bay even using an SPU Century at 4g.