Another Apogee thread? You bet!

christoph

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I received my TSW Scintillas a few months ago. Unfortunately, they arrived with a slight resonance at about 250hz that was only detectable on certain songs and a howling that was prominent on other passages. Rich felt the panels were damaged in transit. Scintillas are known for not traveling well, evidently. Lots of internals can shift. I crated them back up and sent them back (TSW paid for the return and was absolutely wonderful to deal with). The plan was to give them a good look over and fix the issues. Well….the crates arrived at his facility absolutely destroyed. They had been dropped in transit and the speakers were essentially toast. He is now building me some Duettas. I still have an old pair of buzzing Scintillas if I ever long for their sound. So for now it is my mini grands with a servo sub until the Duettas are done in a few weeks.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune :(
 

Soothsayer

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It’s all good. I had to decide if I wanted TSW to make me new Duettas or buy Rich’s full ranges. I chose Duettas because I feel they would be less work trying to match up with different choices in amplification. Plus, I always hear stories of how amazing the bass is on the full range, or the clarity of the top end, but when I hear people tell of their Duetta experiences, it is of a wonderful sonic presentation rather than emphasizing one aspect. I’m looking to simplify my audio experience, not complicate it with multi amps and a myriad of crossover choices. In the end, the Duettas should hopefully give me the least audiophile angst.
 
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BillK

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Note that sadly all the Apogees have a resonance at one frequency or another.

The really interesting thing is I had a song that would cause the ribbons in my Caliper Signature to buzz like a "wax paper on a comb" kazoo.

I actually made a trip out to Rich's place in Utah, and I was actually able to make a pair of Divas do it on the same song.

Speakers that did not were the Full Range and the Duetta Signature.

Not quite sure why the Caliper and Diva would buzz where the Duetta would not, but that's what I found with my test tracks.

FWIW, when I visited Rich the Divas were the best speakers I had ever heard… until I heard his Full Ranges.
 

christoph

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It’s all good. I had to decide if I wanted TSW to make me new Duettas or buy Rich’s full ranges. I chose Duettas because I feel they would be less work trying to match up with different choices in amplification. Plus, I always hear stories of how amazing the bass is on the full range, or the clarity of the top end, but when I hear people tell of their Duetta experiences, it is of a wonderful sonic presentation rather than emphasizing one aspect. I’m looking to simplify my audio experience, not complicate it with multi amps and a myriad of crossover choices. In the end, the Duettas should hopefully give me the least audiophile angst.
But why not have the Scinnies repaired?
If you have a suitable amp for the Scintillas they are way better than the Duettas...
 

Soothsayer

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I’m not really convinced they are. In fact, in some ways I prefer my Stages to the Scintillas. I’m hoping the Duettas are essentially a larger more impactful version of the “Stage sound”. I would say the Scintillas are lovely, but can be a bit “phasy sounding” at times. Obviously due to the MRT configuration. Besides, I still have a set of older Scintillas that sound very good, albeit somewhat buzzy on some passages. I’m not convinced the repaired speakers could make the journey from Nevada to Virginia unscathed anyway. Finally, Rich kind of talked me out of it. He’s not a huge Scintilla fan. He felt the Duetta with all the latest improvements would outperform the Scintilla.
 
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BillK

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I’m not really convinced they are. In fact, in some ways I prefer my Stages to the Scintillas. I’m hoping the Duettas are essentially a larger more impactful version of the “Stage sound”. I would say the Scintillas are lovely, but can be a bit “phasy sounding” at times. Obviously due to the MRT configuration. Besides, I still have a set of older Scintillas that sound very good, albeit somewhat buzzy on some passages. I’m not convinced the repaired speakers could make the journey from Nevada to Virginia unscathed anyway. Finally, Rich kind of talked me out of it. He’s not a huge Scintilla fan. He felt the Duetta with all the latest improvements would outperform the Scintilla.

As a long time Apogee fan, I would agree.
 
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cjfrbw

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I always loved the Stages, in spite of being the baby of the family. I think they were unique in their presentation, even compared to the larger models.
 

Soothsayer

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On another note, I was in Atlanta and went to visit Mike Powell (OCD Hifi Guy on YouTube). He is known to have a pretty amazing system. His main speakers are the big Analysis with a Magneplanar ribbon tweeter outboard and GR Research open baffle servo subs. He had them tri amped with Rowland, NAT, and I forget the other amp. He direct streamed with no preamp. The room was not ideal, but the sound was stunning. He has testimonials on his YouTube channel of people who have visited and their responses. Everyone is pretty much blown away. The one thing that stuck out in my mind was his speaker placement. Because the room is shallow, he had the Analysis positioned tweeter out (with Magnepan tweeter outside the Analysis tweeter) and the speaker toed in A LOT. The soundstage was immense and everything was butter smooth. I got home and tried this with my mini Grands and it is quite amazing. It’s a pretty radical setup, but it creates the effect that Kong describes earlier in this thread. I tried that too, but I prefer this arrangement. Everything must be measured and precise for maximum effect, but WOW! He has many videos of his setup on YouTube Grab some headphones and listen. As far as the Analysis speakers, I don’t really have an opinion. The tweeters were used only as a filler between the bass panels and the Magneplanar tweeters. His rig is modified a lot so it’s hard to tell how any one component impacts the presentation.
 

BillK

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For better or worse I have never heard the Analysis sound good. They always seem to be lacking in the Apogee “magic,” whatever that may be.

I keep trying to listen to them whenever I find a pair being displayed somewhere, whether at a show or a dealer, but to date they leave me cold.
 
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Soothsayer

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For better or worse I have never heard the Analysis sound good. They always seem to be lacking in the Apogee “magic,” whatever that may be.

I keep trying to listen to them whenever I find a pair being displayed somewhere, whether at a show or a dealer, but to date they leave me cold.
The presentation was definitely not as “in your face” as with Apogees, but it was definitely a good smooth sound. I attribute a lot of the smoothness to the Magneplanar tweeter. The most impressive thing to me were the GR subs. They don’t load the room like a traditional subwoofer. They are great with planar speakers and get positioned more like a standard speaker than a sub. They use Rythmik servo drivers and are very fast. I have a Rythmik sealed sub in place of the Mini Grand subs and it is really good. These are next level good, however.
 
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cjfrbw

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I have always had good listener feedback about my Analysis Epsilon (used as a four way active crossover, using subwoofers below 80 and foil tweeters above 7khz. Still, there is something special about the Apogees and the Stage is excellent. Guys that heard the Stages with active crossover and Wavac SET amps really liked it a lot.

My present setup uses the Epsilon bass panels only from 80 to 300, with the 75 inch Wisdom Audio ribbons handling the 300 to 7Khz range, so it is kind of an analog of OCD guy's setup with the four way crossover. I really like it. The Wisdom Audio ribbons gave more dynamic range to the midrange than the Epsilon HF ribbon, which is what I sought. In my room, the Epsilon bass panels are enough for the 80-300 frequency range, and sometimes when I am lazy or want a reference, I will play the bass panels full range without a crossover. They sound quite good that way to me.

OCD guy also doesn't seem that impressed with the Analysis as stand alones, either, but as the midrange and lower midrange support in the four way setup, he seems to like them.

I kind of laughed when I saw OCD guy's setup with the big Analysis ribbons and active crossovers, an example of convergent audiophilia in my case..
 

Soothsayer

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I know this may be a strange question, but has anyone tried an SET amp with 805 tubes putting out around 50 watts into a Duetta? Would that drive it?
 
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bonzo75

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I know this may be a strange question, but has anyone tried an SET amp with 805 tubes putting out around 50 watts into a Duetta? Would that drive it?

it would drive it to produce sound whether you like it or not or another matter.
 

Soothsayer

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I’m wondering if the fact that they are Duetta Ultimate rebuilds would impact their efficiency? Has anyone compared the efficiency of original Signatures to the newer rebuilds? Perhaps I’m grasping at straws here….
 

bonzo75

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So am I to assume that you believe I would not like the sound? Too stressed?

I have heard Duettas, Divas, full Ranges, scintilla and Grands with a variety of amps. The closest to the type you say were the NAT transmitters on full ranges and grands. I do not think this works well you need SS for apogee as I hear lack of drive. You don’t need to go expensive if you don’t want, find used Luxman m900, symphonic line Kraft or RG7. Some people will just prefer sound of valves even with reduced dynamic range so I don’t know how you listen, what music you listen to, etc
 

bonzo75

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I’m wondering if the fact that they are Duetta Ultimate rebuilds would impact their efficiency? Has anyone compared the efficiency of original Signatures to the newer rebuilds? Perhaps I’m grasping at straws here….

where are you located? There was a guy near New York who owned the Duetta ultimate, excellent system. The only duetta I liked. Actually I prefer well done Scintilla, they have similar smaller size relative to FR and diva, pure ribbon midrange and better bass. But there are many poorly done scintilla too. This one was modified by Henk for Christoph
 
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Soothsayer

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I’m in Virginia. I also have old Scintillas and had reworked Scintillas from TSW. I have a good supply of solid state amps. I’ve always been fascinated by the NAT Single HPS and the Line Magnetic with the 805 tubes. I read that the Line Magnetic 150iA is very good with Duettas. Did someone on this forum write that review? (Hifi-advice)
 

cjfrbw

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I know this may be a strange question, but has anyone tried an SET amp with 805 tubes putting out around 50 watts into a Duetta? Would that drive it?
Not a strange question. I labored to use SET with my Stages.

In the day, I ran Apogee Stages with active tubed Luxman crossover in a three way using Two Wavac MD 572 stereo amps and a subwoofer, bypassing the passive crossover. Subwoof was crossed over at 80 Hz. Several picky audiophiles heard that one and were very positive in their response to that setup. Some of these guys unkindly would pan other systems that I actually liked.
MD 572 claimed 50 w/channel, but I think that is optimistic, and they probably put out maybe 35 to 40 watts, vs. the more likely 50 watts or so of 805 based units.

Active crossover saves you about 2-3 db of insertion loss taken out by the Apogee passive crossover. 3db represents double the power efficiency. Other issues with active crossover, too, is the native impedance of the separate ribbon elements. SET's have 4 ohm outputs, but generally operate best into 6-8 ohms. I have used impedance matching transformers with good results on ribbons, but another thing to mess with.

It would probably work with Duettas as well with active crossover (no insertion loss from crossover) and two 805 stereo amps. I doubt it would work as well as you would like with just one 805 stereo amp into a passive crossover based Duetta. You might get something, but not likely at the volume and dynamic reserve that you would like.

You could alternatively use a high quality, higher power SS amp on the bass ribbon with active crossover and use 805 on the midrange ribbon, but that would be subject to experimentation. However, that much effort might just be a long run for a short slide just to shoehorn SET onto an Apogee.
 
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Soothsayer

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The Duettas are completely redone and are actually Duetta Ultimates. They have completely new passive crossover components and stronger magnets, which should make it marginally more efficient. Of course, “efficient” is a relative word with Apogees.
 

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