And then there were three...

[Tango]

I would risk saying that you are a very persuasive person ...

Common Micro. The man, David, is super blunt. Everyone here knows that. To me he is the least persuasive person. But he is super reliable and trust worthy. His advise is like an excellent espresso that has been ground and pressurized with years and years of experience. (I should get big browny points here ddk )

I have my own ears Micro, even though they are bad ones with ringings.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[asiufy]

Marc,

These are integrated subwoofers, very different from having stand-along ones around the room.
I'd say if you intend to stick with the Zus (and heck, I don't know why you would, as they're obviously deficient in so many ways), you should stop buying tweaks and hire some professional help.
Someone to come over to your room, measure, and then position and adjust the parameters of the built-in subs in your speakers.
You obviously haven't nailed it by yourself by now, so professional help only makes sense, before spending money on more tweaks.
And to answer your query, with speakers that do not offer integrated adjustable subs, it's the same deal. Set up matters. Where you place them, listening position, etc. In your case, it gets more complicated by the adjustability. Thus, the possible need for outside help.
That, or just buy a better speaker

cheers,
alex

 

[microstrip]

Common Micro. The man, David, is super blunt. Everyone here knows that. To me he is the least persuasive person. But he is super reliable and trust worthy. His advise is like an excellent espresso that has been ground and pressurized with years and years of experience. (I should get big browny points here ddk )

I have my own ears Micro, even though they are bad ones with ringings.

Kind regards,
Tang

Dear Tang,

For me persuasive in this hobby means someone who becomes credible and plausible by his knowledge on his hobby, enthusiasm and the way he exposes it. I have bough very expensive goods on David advice even without having met him, based on his posts in WBF and many private emails - he is really a friendly and available person, always wanting to help.

I consider that in the high-end we have many equally valid ways of listening to music. We pick what we prefer among the short list of equipment we have the opportunity to listen - for me creating an empathy with those directly or indirectly connected to the equipment we are trying is part of the process. For me, being persuasive in this industry is a positive thing and should be seen as so. I hope my comment is now clear.

BTW, I prefer a good aromatic and tasty cafe made in siphon coffee brewer to an expresso.

 

[NorthStar]

New thread started today and already 10 pages. Wow.

Well I'm very disappointed that this isn't a thread about the Genesis album.

I also gave up subs before you three.

You don't need subs Ian, you have true full range loudspeakers.

* What's your favorite Genesis's album? :b

 

[NorthStar]

Marc,

These are integrated subwoofers, very different from having stand-along ones around the room.
I'd say if you intend to stick with the Zus (and heck, I don't know why you would, as they're obviously deficient in so many ways), you should stop buying tweaks and hire some professional help.
Someone to come over to your room, measure, and then position and adjust the parameters of the built-in subs in your speakers.
You obviously haven't nailed it by yourself by now, so professional help only makes sense, before spending money on more tweaks.
And to answer your query, with speakers that do not offer integrated adjustable subs, it's the same deal. Set up matters. Where you place them, listening position, etc. In your case, it gets more complicated by the adjustability. Thus, the possible need for outside help.
That, or just buy a better speaker

cheers,
alex

I would agree with Alex in regards to a professional acoustician. And that's why I mentioned it in subtlety earlier..."I'm not a professional acoustician."

* I tried for years and years to integrate subs in different rooms with stereo music, without success.
I now use two humble subs integrated through the less than perfect but magic DSP room correction.
They are better integrated than my speakers without. My speakers usually do 30Hz clean when tuned-in in the correct room's positioning. So for approximately 90% off all my music listening I can get by with judicious positioning. I now prefer to activate the subs; they energize the room better where I'm in now...with an opening to an adjacent room. What works for me in my own journey is me me me me me me me me me only, and nobody else. :b

 

[MadFloyd]

You don't need subs Ian, you have true full range loudspeakers.

* What's your favorite Genesis's album? :b

Oh that's easy: Selling England by the Pound.

 

[MadFloyd]

Madfloyd, "...And Then There Were Three" the Genesis album DEFFO needs subs, that is one thin sounding album.

LOL, so true, Mark. Same applies for Wind & Wuthering...

 

[DaveyF]

Common Micro. The man, David, is super blunt. Everyone here knows that. To me he is the least persuasive person. But he is super reliable and trust worthy.

Kind regards,
Tang

Seems to have persuaded you, even though he is “ the least persuasive person” ( your words, not mine)....??

We agree, he is super blunt...among other things.

 

[NorthStar]

Oh that's easy: Selling England by the Pound.

Me too.

 

[DaveyF]

Marc,

These are integrated subwoofers, very different from having stand-along ones around the room.
I'd say if you intend to stick with the Zus (and heck, I don't know why you would, as they're obviously deficient in lso many ways), you should stop buying tweaks and hire some professional help.
Someone to come over to your room, measure, and then position and adjust the parameters of the built-in subs in your speakers.
You obviously haven't nailed it by yourself by now, so professional help only makes sense, before spending money on more tweaks.
And to answer your query, with speakers that do not offer integrated adjustable subs, it's the same deal. Set up matters. Where you place them, listening position, etc. In your case, it gets more complicated by the adjustability. Thus, the possible need for outside help.
That, or just buy a better speaker

cheers,
alex

+1000

 

[KeithR]

Someone to come over to your room, measure, and then position and adjust the parameters of the built-in subs in your speakers.
You obviously haven't nailed it by yourself by now, so professional help only makes sense, before spending money on more tweaks.

I suggested exactly that in another thread - but then he'd have nothing to settle his OCD

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

New thread started today and already 10 pages. Wow.

Well I'm very disappointed that this isn't a thread about the Genesis album.

I also gave up subs before you three.

There is not 10 pages or more of conversation to be had about that Genesis album!

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

You don't need subs Ian, you have true full range loudspeakers.

* What's your favorite Genesis's album? :b

Its easier for me to say there are only 4 i dont like (studio) ATTWT and the last three. Seconds out and Genesis Live are amazing. The DVD version of Seconds out in the box set absolutely makes the best possible sound out of a typical 70's live recording, there is so much information in that mix.

Back to the OP, Marc hope you find happiness soon with your system.

 

[NorthStar]

It's funny; I feel Marc is happy with his system...it's everyone else who is not happy or think that he's not. :b What a bunch.

 

[Tango]

Seems to have persuaded you, even though he is “ the least persuasive person” ( your words, not mine)....??

We agree, he is super blunt...among other things.

You mean if someone cooks five different dishes for me to try and I pick to like one is an act of persuasion?

David didn’t say a word to describe sound or play with my head to hear things. We are talking more than a hundred thousand dollars worth of equipments here that I put aside. I don’t think anyone in the right mind would let a person persuade to quit using without hearing and deciding himself.

Hypnotize maybe . Christian was hypnotized to loose his expensive Hezan table too.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bob, you're a soothsayer.
I am very happy, but it's part of my condition to pick things apart as well.

Did anyone feel Mike L was unfulfilled when he went thru multiple pricey dacs in short order?

Does anyone feel Ked is unhappy travelling to hear the best analog but not having a tt himself?

Does anyone think Christian is negatively restless in having more carts than he can play albums in a day?

No, and the same here, I'm very happy, but am aware of limitations.

Maybe this applies to plenty here, others just never let on or are not as frank as I am.

Thanks for all your input guys, I guess the one thing I really took away is to reinvestigate Zu positioning, and that Mike L wouldn't have bought large abs full range spkrs without deep bass adjustability.

 

[XV-1]

Bob, you're a soothsayer.
I am very happy, but it's part of my condition to pick things apart as well.

Did anyone feel Mike L was unfulfilled when he went thru multiple pricey dacs in short order?

Does anyone feel Ked is unhappy travelling to hear the best analog but not having a tt himself?

Does anyone think Christian is negatively restless in having more carts than he can play albums in a day?

No, and the same here, I'm very happy, but am aware of limitations.

Maybe this applies to plenty here, others just never let on or are not as frank as I am.

Thanks for all your input guys, I guess the one thing I really took away is to reinvestigate Zu positioning, and that Mike L wouldn't have bought large abs full range spkrs without deep bass adjustability.

LOL. well said Marc

 

[the sound of Tao]

I’ve trialled a few subs over the last few years, I had a Wilson Benesch Torus sub at home for a few months when I had the Animas on loan and did try it extensively with my 20.7 Maggies while I had it here as well. A mate also had 20.7s and he had a pair of Torus... or is that Torii?? In the end while the presentation with subs was initially exciting I always just preferred the music with the 20.7s sans subs.

When I originally had 3.7 Maggies I was always aware of only marginally satisfying the bass threshold and rode that edge between having enough bass extension and not and even then tried Rel subs but thankfully the 20.7s were released and that was my perfect out... it gave me comfortably low 23khz and I was able to keep the panels pure without going cone hybrid with subs... coherency is a real issue for me and not something I’ll trade much on.

With the Harbeth 30.1s that I bought as a second system I ran up against much the same issue as when I had the 3.7 Maggies, mostly very happy but also I’d just be aware that there was at times just not quite enough authority going on down low so then I tried a Genelec sub with them which was eq’d for the room. Once again ultimately rather than add subs I then instead upgraded to the Harbeth 40.2s and so now bottom end is just no longer an issue.

I love the balance of both the 20.7s and the 40.2s and have just accepted that the trade offs with additional crossover complexity are just not in my listening happy place. A mate has a great OMA horn with sub setup and so I did get that it is all possible but amp type and positioning are clearly critical so I have tried patiently to get a fair trial for subs but each time while I could get good sound the good music experience was always less for me... but that is just about listening preferences much the same way as some love horns or panels or boxes or tubes or SS or analogue or digital.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Thanks XV.

My thread was genuinely posted as a way to discuss the challenges inherent in getting speakers that truly reproduce deep bass (anything under 30Hz, even sub 20Hz) to work in rooms, where said speakers don't have full adjustability.

In other words, does the lucky new owner of a shiny pr of Rockport Arrakis simply rely on positioning in the listening room to get that "just so" outcome, augmented by serious acoustical treatments?

It's a serious real world q for me, because any full range spkr I might go for from Zus will likely not have any adjustability for deep bass (Haigners and Zingali horns, Apogee Duettas and Scintillas ribbons, Maxonic field coils, possible shortlist candidates).

 

[bonzo75]

Tao, apart from the fact that I did not like the 300k big OMA horns, when the subs were brought on I thought they really did not work. Al thought the same. I really liked the OMA monarch though, that is their next in line and possibly the speaker I would get if I had the money