Barry, the only thing worse than my threads is POTUS opining the state of the world LOL.
Me, subs. DJT, the wall.
And then there were three...
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
- Start date
Barry, the only thing worse than my threads is POTUS opining the state of the world LOL.
Me, subs. DJT, the wall.
Hello Spirit,
I happen to have a soft spot for idiosyncratic speakers - ESL 57s, LS3/5as, WE15as, etc - but I could never live with their inherent limitations were they my sole choice. No amount of blood, sweat or tears will make them anything other than very captivating and very characterful choices for those who can live with their considerable caveats (1).
From my perspective, either;
A) the Zu has latent potential still waiting to be discovered contextualised via your room, amplification, front end and tweaks (2).
Or;
B) You’re reached the ceiling with the Zu’s and it’s time to admit their limitations no longer match your preferences and biases, despite their personal appeal to you in a few critical areas.
Sometimes systems are greater than the sum of their parts, and sometimes they’re less. There’s no crime in acknowledging the parts can no longer provide a satisfying whole.
Best,
853guy
(1) I love Vox AC30 and Fender Blackface amps. For clean/crunchy guitar tones. But as amps for keys or bass? Nuh-uh.
(2) Unlikely. Sure, you may get dynamics, and shove, and presence, and immediacy, and coherence and lots of other good things from a large “full-range” driver. But the caveat is that its behaviour becomes less and less linear at the frequency extremes, exacerbated in single drivers that cover greater number of octaves. Yes, you get more of what you like within its area of linearity, but near its cut-off integration becomes an issue because the main driver ceases to behave predictably relative to the drivers above and below. So while I get that you may love what’s happening in terms of tone and harmonics and whatever else between 100 and 10,000 Hz, it’s possible moving space has revealed those integration limitations more clearly over time. That could go some way to explain the current preference for super-tweeters being “in” and subs being “out”. For all the goodness you’ve exacted from the main drivers, perhaps it’s time to admit what they do best comes at the expense of the other drivers outside the critical range of the human voice performing at their best, at least given the particular iteration you’ve living with.
I happen to have a soft spot for idiosyncratic speakers - ESL 57s, LS3/5as, WE15as, etc - but I could never live with their inherent limitations were they my sole choice. No amount of blood, sweat or tears will make them anything other than very captivating and very characterful choices for those who can live with their considerable caveats (1).
From my perspective, either;
A) the Zu has latent potential still waiting to be discovered contextualised via your room, amplification, front end and tweaks (2).
Or;
B) You’re reached the ceiling with the Zu’s and it’s time to admit their limitations no longer match your preferences and biases, despite their personal appeal to you in a few critical areas.
Sometimes systems are greater than the sum of their parts, and sometimes they’re less. There’s no crime in acknowledging the parts can no longer provide a satisfying whole.
Best,
853guy
(1) I love Vox AC30 and Fender Blackface amps. For clean/crunchy guitar tones. But as amps for keys or bass? Nuh-uh.
(2) Unlikely. Sure, you may get dynamics, and shove, and presence, and immediacy, and coherence and lots of other good things from a large “full-range” driver. But the caveat is that its behaviour becomes less and less linear at the frequency extremes, exacerbated in single drivers that cover greater number of octaves. Yes, you get more of what you like within its area of linearity, but near its cut-off integration becomes an issue because the main driver ceases to behave predictably relative to the drivers above and below. So while I get that you may love what’s happening in terms of tone and harmonics and whatever else between 100 and 10,000 Hz, it’s possible moving space has revealed those integration limitations more clearly over time. That could go some way to explain the current preference for super-tweeters being “in” and subs being “out”. For all the goodness you’ve exacted from the main drivers, perhaps it’s time to admit what they do best comes at the expense of the other drivers outside the critical range of the human voice performing at their best, at least given the particular iteration you’ve living with.
Hey 853, insightful as ever. Thanks.
If you read 213Cobra's impassioned defence of the Zu full range crossoverless high efficiency topology on the Zu related thread on Ron Resnick's Reviews Forum, he very much argues that the strengths of the Zu modus operandi significantly outweighs any disadvantages, and is by definition the better way of reproducing music than multi driver medium or low efficiency complex crossover alternatives that take up 99% of the market.
For the first time Im minded to disagree w him. Not that I'm suddenly about to be converted to a more traditional audiophile approach of multiple drivers and behemoth amps in my room, but after acquiring an acoustic money can't easily buy, and wringing performance as far as I can reasonably go, I am aware of Zu performance envelope limitations.
If you read 213Cobra's impassioned defence of the Zu full range crossoverless high efficiency topology on the Zu related thread on Ron Resnick's Reviews Forum, he very much argues that the strengths of the Zu modus operandi significantly outweighs any disadvantages, and is by definition the better way of reproducing music than multi driver medium or low efficiency complex crossover alternatives that take up 99% of the market.
For the first time Im minded to disagree w him. Not that I'm suddenly about to be converted to a more traditional audiophile approach of multiple drivers and behemoth amps in my room, but after acquiring an acoustic money can't easily buy, and wringing performance as far as I can reasonably go, I am aware of Zu performance envelope limitations.
I'm not an Apogee lover. Having heard almost all of their models including the large Grand, i can easily hear where they all fall down. Lots of folks won't care about those issues, but to my ears they are a non-starter.
Duetta's that can do 20Hz bass??? Flat bass to 20Hz....not the one's that i heard, unless you discount the VERY obvious ribbon flap as being irrelevant!
I'll let User211 respond to you Davey, he being owner of the aforementioned Duettas.
If his bass isn't 20Hz, no matter, it's enough for me.
Despite loving Justin's sound, I do have reservations. Horns remain the more natural alternative for me.
If his bass isn't 20Hz, no matter, it's enough for me.
Despite loving Justin's sound, I do have reservations. Horns remain the more natural alternative for me.
User 211 might like Apogee's, good for him. I don't and that's my opinion. I don't like horns either, but i recognize that some people are infatuated with them...good for them. Remember, what I like doesn't have to be what you like and vice versa.
No worries, Marc. I think we all go about trying to get that elusive sound that we consider as 'real' or as close to the sound of 'live' as possible in our home environments. Some of us have differing ideas in their heads as to what that sound is...it's all good. Problem with this hobby,and this has always been the case, is it is VERY difficult to get off the train...as there is always some system or other piece of gear that we hope will extract that final piece of the puzzle. Big question becomes if that is always going to be wishful thinking. If we go by other people's opinion, particularly those trying to sell the gear, then IME there is ALWAYS someone that can suggest a better alternative...even though that suggestion may in fact be completely false. This naturally leads to a state of uncertainty, which then leads to a hunt for the solution....which in many cases is simply going down the 'rabbit hole'. Charlatans are in full force and effect in this hobby at the moment...so one has to be VERY careful whom you believe and who you don't.
Best to just enjoy the music..and don't overthink the system, all IMHO!
Davey, FWIW, the Zu sound is really compelling, but can be a bit of a "rough diamond".
So it does the musical message thing like live unamplified in the areas of tone density, timbre, immediacy, warmth and agility.
It slightly frays as 853guy succinctly put it, at the extremes of the full range driver envelope, where the upper mids can be a bit gritty into the treble, and the lower mids/upper bass can be opaque going into the subs.
This means the central message of music is really immersive, lots of tone and shove, but there's a lack of transparency or more accurately neutrality and flow into the frequency extremes, and as such, music is a little coloured.
Now compared to the colourations I really struggle with in other gear, from ceramic mids drivers hardness, to overly warm tube amps, to tipped up treble heavy behemoth spkrs, to grainy SS amps, to presentations which are hyper resolved at the expense of tone and timbre, the Zus shortcomings are benign, and easily lived with.
But they are there, the room, and additional efforts into optimisation via ancilliaries and careful attention to subs settings, have both brought the best out of my Zus, AND revealed their potential glass ceiling.
So it does the musical message thing like live unamplified in the areas of tone density, timbre, immediacy, warmth and agility.
It slightly frays as 853guy succinctly put it, at the extremes of the full range driver envelope, where the upper mids can be a bit gritty into the treble, and the lower mids/upper bass can be opaque going into the subs.
This means the central message of music is really immersive, lots of tone and shove, but there's a lack of transparency or more accurately neutrality and flow into the frequency extremes, and as such, music is a little coloured.
Now compared to the colourations I really struggle with in other gear, from ceramic mids drivers hardness, to overly warm tube amps, to tipped up treble heavy behemoth spkrs, to grainy SS amps, to presentations which are hyper resolved at the expense of tone and timbre, the Zus shortcomings are benign, and easily lived with.
But they are there, the room, and additional efforts into optimisation via ancilliaries and careful attention to subs settings, have both brought the best out of my Zus, AND revealed their potential glass ceiling.
Hello DaveyF,
I’ve discussed my perspective on this extensively before, so will not repeat those ideas here.
Instead, let me offer an analogy:
In America, the diet industry makes $66 billion annually.
A person who exercises semi-regularly primarily in medium intense bursts using compound exercises for strength and posture, with small to medium amounts of cardio (and hence, avoids long-term damage to joints impacting mobility); eats primarily for nutrition from foods that are purchased in-season and do not rely on agri-chemical spraying (and hence, avoids white and processed carbohydrates); and has learned to cook for themselves (and hence, is less reliant on what others consider to be “good for you” via an expensive marketing campaign), has created a lifestyle in which they will be much less likely to seek the advice of gurus promoting expensive fad diets, gym memberships advertised by persons whose results have more to do with their DNA, supplements and time spent exercising than the exercises themselves, and “diet pills” to manage weight gain.
That is, a person who has become a practitioner of self-management is immune to the snake oil salesmen. They can’t sell you a solution to a problem you don’t have.
The simple reality is that a person of magical thinking will look for magical solutions, even when the problem cannot be solved by those solutions, or worse, is compounded by them. Unfortunately, hi-fi - like weight loss - is full of magical thinking. And magical thinking on behalf of a consumer base who refuse to think robustly is much, much more of a problem than the fact that there will always be those wiling to take advantage of it.
Exposing fraudulent and unethical behaviour of a few is a band aid. Eradicating magical thinking on behalf of a majority is the cure. After all, the former cannot exist without the latter.
Best,
853guy
Dave, as someone on this forum PMd me, I put my chin out and chances it'll get punched LOL.
Hey, I'd rather risk getting beaten up to pick up gems of insight and practical advice, than just shut up and not make the most of a very resourceful and experienced set of fellow enthusiasts.
And what would be the fun in any endeavour in life if it just came together w no effort?
For me, what works in my situation w my biases far outweighs the disadvantages, all I'm trying to do is square remaining circles.
But don't worry David, I know who the one other imbecile is other than me LOL.
Hey, I'd rather risk getting beaten up to pick up gems of insight and practical advice, than just shut up and not make the most of a very resourceful and experienced set of fellow enthusiasts.
And what would be the fun in any endeavour in life if it just came together w no effort?
For me, what works in my situation w my biases far outweighs the disadvantages, all I'm trying to do is square remaining circles.
But don't worry David, I know who the one other imbecile is other than me LOL.
IMHO Duetta's can't have flat output down to 20 Hz in such room, unless strongly equalized.
Ok Francisco, how would Duettas bass fare in my room, 5.5m wide, and length 7m or 14m (depending on if I subdivide my room in half)?
Marc, have you thought about creating a thread devoted to your specific system and its evolution? In such a thread, you could share your thoughts, expose concerns, rave about the latest tweak, and ask specific or general advice. People could go to that specific thread to discuss your system. You seem to be ever searching for improvement which is why this thread drifted from your stated purpose of discussing full range, non adjustable full range floor standing speakers and how to make them work in specific rooms. That topic is not going anywhere because Tango, Steve and you have very different conditions and systems and there is no trend toward getting rid of subs.
I think you should start a separate thread on that subject if that is what you are really interested in discussing. The problem is that you keep bringing the discussion back to your Zu speakers and your dissatisfaction with the sound of your system.
I'm confused about the title of this thread.
I think you should start a separate thread on that subject if that is what you are really interested in discussing. The problem is that you keep bringing the discussion back to your Zu speakers and your dissatisfaction with the sound of your system.
I'm confused about the title of this thread.
Peter, you'll see that I did ask specifically for opinions of other big full range spkrs where sub bass doesn't have fine tuning, and how owners deal w this.
I have v limited scope to get my subs right, and that's w six separate adjustable parameters. Just how do other people do it where they don't have these controls?
I have v limited scope to get my subs right, and that's w six separate adjustable parameters. Just how do other people do it where they don't have these controls?
The Sub or no sub subject is huge, and very system dependent. Not only the speaker design itself, but the amps powering them, how they can control the bass drivers (or not).
I used to work in the DJ scene when I was younger, and watched the guys setting up their enormous speaker towers at both indoor and outdoor venues. Depending on the size of the venue it can talk days.
Most rock or dance concerts have a huge amount of bass energy, seemingly 80% of the amplifiers power drives the huge bass towers. And without it it sound rubbish TBH.
Back to domestic audio, even in my small system I can't loose the sub. It gives enough information about the foundation to music that I would miss without it. Like a bridge floating over the water, not anchored in the river bed.
To get a sub to work is difficult, partly as the phase, speed and integration of it is complex. But also the bass energy starts to 'test' the environment, and you will be provided with standing waves of bass at various distances away from the source. Places where almost no output is heard more or less. The most basic requirement is to set it up is put the sub in your listing chair, play a bass heavy track, and move / crawl around the room till you hear the bass at it's loudest AND most articulate. Then put the sub right there. It may be in a corner, against a wall halfway down the room or bang in the middle of the rear wall.
Then set it as low as you can to 'just' hear it in the combined images with the main speakers. Then play with the cut off and phase again. The room can change bass response depending if you have a door open, window etc. You know you get great bass in the car right? Well, seal the room and try it. But at home you are aiming for an integrated response, not be reminded of the sub at all. After you get it right, try switching it off after say a week or so, and you WILL miss it I am sure of it.
It can be superb when it is set up right. My Zingalis are 38hz at -3dB so I cut the sub at 40hz. I run test tone from 180hz down to 18hz and it holds the response very flat even at high volumes.
You DON"T want your sub 'aiding' the response much if at all in the mains core FR range, as that will get lots of interactions, problems etc.
Lastly, I found having a concrete floor is key, wooden floors or suspended floor can have peaks and be boomy. Concrete loves bass, and doesn't fire it back. So if wood floor maybe the shows over for the sub?
Now, I am going to order some natural wall cork for my back wall to clean up the mid range!
I used to work in the DJ scene when I was younger, and watched the guys setting up their enormous speaker towers at both indoor and outdoor venues. Depending on the size of the venue it can talk days.
Most rock or dance concerts have a huge amount of bass energy, seemingly 80% of the amplifiers power drives the huge bass towers. And without it it sound rubbish TBH.
Back to domestic audio, even in my small system I can't loose the sub. It gives enough information about the foundation to music that I would miss without it. Like a bridge floating over the water, not anchored in the river bed.
To get a sub to work is difficult, partly as the phase, speed and integration of it is complex. But also the bass energy starts to 'test' the environment, and you will be provided with standing waves of bass at various distances away from the source. Places where almost no output is heard more or less. The most basic requirement is to set it up is put the sub in your listing chair, play a bass heavy track, and move / crawl around the room till you hear the bass at it's loudest AND most articulate. Then put the sub right there. It may be in a corner, against a wall halfway down the room or bang in the middle of the rear wall.
Then set it as low as you can to 'just' hear it in the combined images with the main speakers. Then play with the cut off and phase again. The room can change bass response depending if you have a door open, window etc. You know you get great bass in the car right? Well, seal the room and try it. But at home you are aiming for an integrated response, not be reminded of the sub at all. After you get it right, try switching it off after say a week or so, and you WILL miss it I am sure of it.
It can be superb when it is set up right. My Zingalis are 38hz at -3dB so I cut the sub at 40hz. I run test tone from 180hz down to 18hz and it holds the response very flat even at high volumes.
You DON"T want your sub 'aiding' the response much if at all in the mains core FR range, as that will get lots of interactions, problems etc.
Lastly, I found having a concrete floor is key, wooden floors or suspended floor can have peaks and be boomy. Concrete loves bass, and doesn't fire it back. So if wood floor maybe the shows over for the sub?
Now, I am going to order some natural wall cork for my back wall to clean up the mid range!
Don´t know. I had the Signatures in my room (9m long) a couple of months ago, and although they could be driven at louder volumes than Soundlab's they had less bass extension. Any of them pales compared to the XLF.
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