Alsyvox planars...prepare to sell your Magico's, YG's, Wilson's, Cessaro's. Maggie's, and all others!!

[dr k]

As has been mentioned several times in this forum, the "ideal" frequency response of loudspeakers at the listening position is never flat. Studies by Harmon, B&K (see Fig 5: https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf) and many other have shown this quite clearly. What is rather surprising is that it seemed to have taken Alon Wolf quite a while to figure this out and voice his speakers accordingly. The graph below superimposes the Valin M Pro response with an approximation of the "ideal" loudspeaker response advocated by B&K. It's not surprising that all Magico speakers post M Pro have a far more attractive sound to most listeners than their earlier work, which strived for a technically flatter response thus yielding a sound that was brighter and less balanced.

View attachment 45716

Thanks for posting this. It is exactly how Apogee voiced their speakers. 10 dB down from low to high freq. This is something most modern speaker designers ignore.

 

[dr k]

You mention driver problems, cabinet problems and crossover problems with many conventional cone speaker brands. Have you not auditioned Rockport Technologies speakers, or have you auditioned them and found them to have the same problems as these other brands but you forgot to add Rockports to your post, or have you auditioned them and found them not to have the same problems as these other brands?

Hi Ron, I auditioned the Rockport Altair back in 2007 for about 1 hour at Goodwin's high fi dealer in Waltham. The dealer has the most elaborately custom treated $200k audio room I've ever seen. I've always been a fan of Rockport Altair because it is highly balanced full range speakers with no major flaws. It can have a huge soundstage with realistic imaging when the recording has it. Tonally it is slightly on the warm side. The only criticism I have of Rockports in general is that they don't have the best transparency of good ribbon or electrostat speaker. But what dynamic speaker does? BTW, I auditioned two Magico speakers side by side to the Altair, the Magico Mini and some $150k aluminum chassis beer keg Magico monstrosity I don't recall the name of. IMO, they were both too bright and unlistenable. Unfortunatley, I have yet to hear a Magico I like. But the Rockports in general are some of the best dynamic speakers out there.

 

[microstrip]

As has been mentioned several times in this forum, the "ideal" frequency response of loudspeakers at the listening position is never flat. Studies by Harmon, B&K (see Fig 5: https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf) and many other have shown this quite clearly. What is rather surprising is that it seemed to have taken Alon Wolf quite a while to figure this out and voice his speakers accordingly. The graph below superimposes the Valin M Pro response with an approximation of the "ideal" loudspeaker response advocated by B&K. It's not surprising that all Magico speakers post M Pro have a far more attractive sound to most listeners than their earlier work, which strived for a technically flatter response thus yielding a sound that was brighter and less balanced.

View attachment 45716

Marty,

I disagree with your view, IMHO the ideal B&K response acoustically superimposes poorly on the response measured by J Valin. The JV curve is essentially flat between 2 and 10 kHz , more than three octaves, the B&K curve tilts 2 dB in the same area. The increase in bass in JV curve relative to 2 kHz is +10 dB in the 125/250 Hz octave , B&K advises on +3dB.

If I was describing the speaker on JV graph - something IMHO we should not do - I would say : essentially an almost flat speaker with a room boosted bass bellow 200 Hz. The final tilt down starting around 14 kHz is probably due to microphone response - many microphones used in cheap measuring systems show it - this time it was promoted to "an artifact of my measurements" . Anyway the technical part of the review is too short to be of any use - as far we can see there was no spatial average on these measurements. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/magico-m-project-loudspeaker-part-two/

 

[microstrip]

Thanks for posting this. It is exactly how Apogee voiced their speakers. 10 dB down from low to high freq. This is something most modern speaker designers ignore.

There are many ways of measuring speakers, we can not compare data on panels with data on point like speakers.

 

[dr k]

There are many ways of measuring speakers, we can not compare data on panels with data on point like speakers.

Yes, I realize that. Panel speakers seem to benefit from this type of tilted response, possibly because they generate more energy in the high frequency over a large area. Modern panel speakers seem to shoot for flat frequency, including the Alsyvox Botticelli. But even for point source speakers, trying to achieve flat frequency response seems to make the speaker sound too bright or irritating to my ears in many cases. It may be in part due to room interaction though.

 

[DaveyF]

Everything depends on system context, Ron. And Davey didn't exactly say that he does not accept that not everyone likes Lyra cartridges. He gave an explanation, which may be correct or not, of why he thinks people react to Lyras the way they do. Also, not every Lyra sounds the same. I haven't heard his particular model, have you?

Thank you Al. That’s exactly right, there will always be some people who don’t like some aspect about any gear. You asked Ron an excellent question, has he actually heard the model in question, or is he just extrapolating from past experience...I will be most interested in his answer!
Ron, I could say the same thing about you ( as you did of me), why do you keep banging the same drum and insisting that what you heard applies to all Lyra’s, and that everyone hears what you do? I ask you, in your logic, is it not possible that Lyra’s are getting a bad rap, due to one of the issues that I previously brought to our attention?

 

[DaveyF]

I love Horns AND Dipole Stats but I would never say ALL horns and ALL Dipole Stats are excellent. Far from it.
I have heard WAY more bad Horns than I have heard good Horns, let alone excellent Horns
Almost the same applies to Dipoles but not to such vast extent like with Horns...

Don't you think it is also a virtue to listen to what a given set of speakers can offer and do well rather than to look for shortcomings?
There will never be a set of Speakers, that can do anything better than all others in all aspects, not at any Price.
You have to find what is most important to you and juggle virtues against shortcomings against budget

One of the points about this thread, is that the new Alsyvox can actually do everything better than all the others!
Thereby, allowing one to not have to juggle virtues against shortcomings.
Now, obviously having stated that, I am 100% certain that if I were to listen to this speaker, I could hear its shortcomings....Like you said there are no perfect transducers. However, my a’phile friend, who has very good ears, was so taken with this speaker, that I am more than curious to hear it...as possibly we all should given what he stated.

 

[DaveyF]

I agree, Al. This reminds me of the reports I've read about the Magico Q series sounding sterile, analytical, bright, etc. It depends so much on system context and the listener's preferences and biases. I was a bit concerned about my Q3 which is why I had the great fortune to be able to audition and live with it for a month before committing to buying it. With careful set up, and in my particular system context with Pass amplification and vinyl only, the sound is not what others typically ascribe to the Q series.

I don't think this is all that different from what DaveyF is saying. Context matters. Yes, there is a house sound identifiable over a broad range of contexts, but within that range, one can find samples that are "just right" for that listener.

I think you are spot on with this Peter. Some of the best sounding systems I have heard were using Magico’s...one in particular used the Q3. OTOH, I have heard systems using Magico’s that were too sterile and bright. I know that the systems that were sterile and bright were that way due to the set up and ancillary gear...which wasn’t synergistic with the speakers. Like you stated, context matters....something that I am trying to put across to Ron.( and which he is having none of)

 

[Al M.]

Like you stated, context matters....something that I am trying to put across to Ron.( and which he is having none of)

That's not exactly true. Ron appreciated the great sound of the Magico Q3 in Peter's system, even though in general, if am not mistaken, he did not like Magico before except the M3. So he is well aware that context matters.

 

[christoph]

One of the points about this thread, is that the new Alsyvox can actually do everything better than all the others!
Thereby, allowing one to not have to juggle virtues against shortcomings.
Now, obviously having stated that, I am 100% certain that if I were to listen to this speaker, I could hear its shortcomings....Like you said there are no perfect transducers. However, my a’phile friend, who has very good ears, was so taken with this speaker, that I am more than curious to hear it...as possibly we all should given what he stated.

The thread title is from you, obviously provocative after you haven't heard the Alsyvox speakers yourself
I have heard them myself several times and very much liked them

 

[PeterA]

That's not exactly true. Ron appreciated the great sound of the Magico Q3 in Peter's system, even though in general, if am not mistaken, he did not like Magico before except the M3. So he is well aware that context matters.

I think that is pretty much correct. A big part of the sound that Ron liked in my system was due to the Magico/Pass pairing. Our mutual friend from Maine was also quite surprised by, and pleased with, the sound of the Q3. He was expecting something very different based on all of the reports he read about sterility and brightness.

We all have our ideas about gear based on the particular samples that we have heard. We then extrapolate and think we know something. I have been wrong so many times, I've lost count. I try to now be much more open minded and assume very little about a system or a component until I've heard it. Perhaps I am woefully inexperienced.

 

[Al M.]

I have been wrong so many times, I've lost count.

Me too. I think everyone has been. It's part of the nature of the hobby.

 

[ack]

Who hasn't

 

[PeterA]

So after seven pages and admissions of fallibility, has anyone decided to sell their speakers and try these new planars? I'd like to hear them but it seems many here like what they have and are not looking for big changes.

 

[christoph]

So after seven pages and admissions of fallibility, has anyone decided to sell their speakers and try these new planars?

Barely anyone has heard them for themselves

 

[Al M.]

So after seven pages and admissions of fallibility, has anyone decided to sell their speakers and try these new planars? I'd like to hear them but it seems many here like what they have and are not looking for big changes.

I'd like to hear them too, but I am not looking for big changes. I have neither the room nor the money. I like what I have -- A LOT!!!!!!! A WHOLE LOT!!!

Frankly I don't expect a miracle from those speakers, but who knows.

 

[DaveyF]

That's not exactly true. Ron appreciated the great sound of the Magico Q3 in Peter's system, even though in general, if am not mistaken, he did not like Magico before except the M3. So he is well aware that context matters.

I think it is very true, in regards to Ron's opinion of the Lyra sound. I wasn't specifically stating a universal...how could I be doing that?

 

[DaveyF]

Barely anyone has heard them for themselves

That is the problem with this new brand. No one--or very few, have actually heard them.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you Al. That’s exactly right, there will always be some people who don’t like some aspect about any gear. You asked Ron an excellent question, has he actually heard the model in question, or is he just extrapolating from past experience...I will be most interested in his answer!
Ron, I could say the same thing about you ( as you did of me), why do you keep banging the same drum and insisting that what you heard applies to all Lyra’s, and that everyone hears what you do? I ask you, in your logic, is it not possible that Lyra’s are getting a bad rap, due to one of the issues that I previously brought to our attention?

I have never represented specifically anyone’s opinion on the Lyras other than my own.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Everything depends on system context, Ron. And Davey didn't exactly say that he does not accept that not everyone likes Lyra cartridges. He gave an explanation, which may be correct or not, of why he thinks people react to Lyras the way they do. Also, not every Lyra sounds the same. I haven't heard his particular model, have you?

Al, I heard the Lyra Delos three weeks ago at Audio Element.

My ears hear the Lyras as having a similar “house” sound, except for the Etna SL, which I think I hear as fantastic without the leanness/analytical attributes.