Kcin - 7025's are a great choice. They were designed to be a lower noise 12AX7 variant. They work great in the Io (the older RCA's). Have not tried any newer 7025's yet. Keep us posted.
Aesthetix Io Users Group
- Thread starter audioquest4life
- Start date
audioquest4life - my drawing was not accurate. The V1 and V2 are not shown correctly. Both V1 and V2 should be selected for low noise to ensure that overall noise figure is kept low.
As far as Io and preamp - some people like/prefer it, others not. I have tried to select components for neutrality and transparency. I tried a preamp once with the Io and quickly disconnected it. Not to my taste.
This post is a running update.
Initial impressions with the Sovtek LPS....well, they are ticking all of the right notes and seemingly make the music sound more holographic compared to the Teslovaks. Granted, these are new, but, the LPS exude a texture in the vocals that stand out. This will only get better as they break in.
For noise, “What Noise?”. Really, I do not have any noise at all, just melancholy from the music. I put on an old record, Yvonne Elleman, and played “If I can’t have you” and it was sounding pretty good, along with all of the other songs on this side of the LP. Actually, as I sit here and listen, the tubes are still warming, but as they warm, I am hearing the vocals in a more enchanting way. That’s the way I like it. Golly, this phono amp can get so intimate, it gets under your skin and gives you goosebumps when everything is just right. Many of you Io owners have came to the same conclusion.
1.5 hours in. My next LP, was the Tube Only ViOlin by Tacet. It is an all analog recording Using Neumann M49 mics. Made in Germany. With the noise floor so low, you can hear the recording space better and with more details. Splendid, dynamic, and something better to listen to during the daytime or when you want to rock, ala, classical style. The violins swell up in energy on this album and have some soft passages. The dynamic range of your system will be tested when the violinist goes full bore. It’s actually quite lovely to listen to. Mix in a drink or two and enjoy.
2.5 hours. Supertramp, Breakfast in America. Song, Child of Vision. A different type of music altogether. Yes, I have very eclectic tastes in music. With 8500 plus records, I can choose from a variety of music to suit my musical mood. This song tests ones systems ability to play dynamic rock piano and to hear drums traverse across the musical playing field on the opening beat.
I also did a quick DB test at the listening position, max DB was 94, loud, average 84. When music ended, DB readings dropped to between 34-39. Ambient room noise With No volume, room is about 26. I used an IPhone DB app. I could not find my Radio Shack sound meter.
For now, I am satisfied with the LPS sound as used in the first gain stage. This also endorses my initial in depth review of the Io in 2006 or 08 when I was on a tube rolling roll, no pun intended, LOL.
I will leave these in for a week then I will swap in the Gold Lions and make a comparative analysis With the GL‘s.
Initial impressions with the Sovtek LPS....well, they are ticking all of the right notes and seemingly make the music sound more holographic compared to the Teslovaks. Granted, these are new, but, the LPS exude a texture in the vocals that stand out. This will only get better as they break in.
For noise, “What Noise?”. Really, I do not have any noise at all, just melancholy from the music. I put on an old record, Yvonne Elleman, and played “If I can’t have you” and it was sounding pretty good, along with all of the other songs on this side of the LP. Actually, as I sit here and listen, the tubes are still warming, but as they warm, I am hearing the vocals in a more enchanting way. That’s the way I like it. Golly, this phono amp can get so intimate, it gets under your skin and gives you goosebumps when everything is just right. Many of you Io owners have came to the same conclusion.
1.5 hours in. My next LP, was the Tube Only ViOlin by Tacet. It is an all analog recording Using Neumann M49 mics. Made in Germany. With the noise floor so low, you can hear the recording space better and with more details. Splendid, dynamic, and something better to listen to during the daytime or when you want to rock, ala, classical style. The violins swell up in energy on this album and have some soft passages. The dynamic range of your system will be tested when the violinist goes full bore. It’s actually quite lovely to listen to. Mix in a drink or two and enjoy.
2.5 hours. Supertramp, Breakfast in America. Song, Child of Vision. A different type of music altogether. Yes, I have very eclectic tastes in music. With 8500 plus records, I can choose from a variety of music to suit my musical mood. This song tests ones systems ability to play dynamic rock piano and to hear drums traverse across the musical playing field on the opening beat.
I also did a quick DB test at the listening position, max DB was 94, loud, average 84. When music ended, DB readings dropped to between 34-39. Ambient room noise With No volume, room is about 26. I used an IPhone DB app. I could not find my Radio Shack sound meter.
For now, I am satisfied with the LPS sound as used in the first gain stage. This also endorses my initial in depth review of the Io in 2006 or 08 when I was on a tube rolling roll, no pun intended, LOL.
I will leave these in for a week then I will swap in the Gold Lions and make a comparative analysis With the GL‘s.
You don't need a volume control version of the Io to test plus and minus with a preamp. It is just that it makes fine-tuning possible.
Here is a possible test method:
1 Set the internal Io output so it sounds optimal with your current setup (adjusted for your current cartridge) if not done already.
2 Check that you can use this output directly into the amp(s) (may be too loud, be ready to turn off).
3 Check that the sound is OK going right into the amp(s), with no problems, e g overload - if so, go down on the Io gain, on the internal switches, if the sound seems too weak, try a step up.
4 Try with / without a preamp in the chain, varying the volume so the Io/preamp mix sounds best. Measure noise, if possible (see method above) and also write down listener impressions.
5 Compare the listener + noise results from inserting a preamp, to the Io direct to the amp(s) results.
Here is a possible test method:
1 Set the internal Io output so it sounds optimal with your current setup (adjusted for your current cartridge) if not done already.
2 Check that you can use this output directly into the amp(s) (may be too loud, be ready to turn off).
3 Check that the sound is OK going right into the amp(s), with no problems, e g overload - if so, go down on the Io gain, on the internal switches, if the sound seems too weak, try a step up.
4 Try with / without a preamp in the chain, varying the volume so the Io/preamp mix sounds best. Measure noise, if possible (see method above) and also write down listener impressions.
5 Compare the listener + noise results from inserting a preamp, to the Io direct to the amp(s) results.
I have now taken out my Telefunkens due to their noise even in the second gain stage, and have re-inserted the JJs that were supplied by Aesthetix in 2017. Low noise has become my first priority. It remains to be seen how much I like the LPS in the first gain stage with the JJs in the second. The LPS need some more playing time I believe.
Noise measuring - testing with my Huawei p30 phone, the apps I download show very different measures, compared to my Velleman Analogue Sound Level Meter that I bought in 2013. It is the same as the Radio shack sound meter 33-205, from what I read. Not a big investment. It is much more in line with what I hear, than the two apps I tried, “SPL Meter” and “Sound meter”, on my phone.
Noise measuring - testing with my Huawei p30 phone, the apps I download show very different measures, compared to my Velleman Analogue Sound Level Meter that I bought in 2013. It is the same as the Radio shack sound meter 33-205, from what I read. Not a big investment. It is much more in line with what I hear, than the two apps I tried, “SPL Meter” and “Sound meter”, on my phone.
Teslovak - I think those were the first gain stage tubes that I got from Aesthetix in the stock tube set, back in 2012. We never became friends. So I invested in costly Telefunken NOS for the first gain stage, in 2013. The Teslovaks were quite low noise, although not as good as later stock tubes, and in terms of musicality, I was not impressed. Never looked back when I got the Telefunken quad, which had acceptable noise in the first years.
Noise can be measured in many ways of course. I might use my Rode mic into a soundcard / laptop and analyze with REW for example. But even if it is interesting to find a ca "acceptable S/N ratio", it is actually my ears that decide. If low noise was all I cared for, I would have bought another phono stage. Now, with good new production tubes in stage one and two, noise is acceptably low. For me, this is the "no worry" point. So, I am looking for NOS in the first gain stage that dont exceed this low noise level. In contact with some potential sellers.
I looked in my audio logg regarding the Telefunken quad I bought (from Brent Jessee) in 2013, and have used in the first gain stage. These tubes have always worked very well in terms of musicality, the best I have heard so far (limited experience with NOS, though). It was only after 3 years or so that I started to worry about the noise. However, in those years I followed a philosophy of "keeping the Io on" even if not using it, since it had the optimal sound when warmed up for some hours. So, the Io was on maybe 10 hours a day, eating away the tube life quite quickly. In 2017 it was on repair at the factory, and later, I have reversed my philosphy - only turn the Io on when actually listening to music, or at most, half an hour before.
I looked in my audio logg regarding the Telefunken quad I bought (from Brent Jessee) in 2013, and have used in the first gain stage. These tubes have always worked very well in terms of musicality, the best I have heard so far (limited experience with NOS, though). It was only after 3 years or so that I started to worry about the noise. However, in those years I followed a philosophy of "keeping the Io on" even if not using it, since it had the optimal sound when warmed up for some hours. So, the Io was on maybe 10 hours a day, eating away the tube life quite quickly. In 2017 it was on repair at the factory, and later, I have reversed my philosphy - only turn the Io on when actually listening to music, or at most, half an hour before.
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I only turn on the Io when I am using it. Warm up for a good hour, eine stunde, Afterwards,
let the music flow. It is so interesting to hear the audible changes in sound quality as the Io warms up.
Your experiences with the NOS Teles in the first gain stage endorses that of others, using NOS in the Io is glorious.
let the music flow. It is so interesting to hear the audible changes in sound quality as the Io warms up.
Your experiences with the NOS Teles in the first gain stage endorses that of others, using NOS in the Io is glorious.
Yes, I also think 30-60 minutes of warm up is good advice.
Keeping the Io on, when not in use, not only eats up tube life, but also increases the chance of "wear and tear plus heat" type of problems, over time - in my experience. Like the soldering in the volume controls going bad. I am not blaming Aesthetix for this - it happened after ten years of heavy use, with suboptimal ventilation. It wont happen again - I have installed silent computer fans, on the wall, behind the Io.
I also agree that it is well worth it, searching for the best NOS tubes in the most important positions in the Io. Yes, this can sound glorious.
Still, my ears are now very open to the best sound from the LPS / JJ combination (stage 1 and 2) I that I test now. E g I don't listen for what these new production tubes do "wrong" compared to my former Telefunken NOS, but what they do "right", instead. I don't want to get stuck in NOS nostalgia.
Keeping the Io on, when not in use, not only eats up tube life, but also increases the chance of "wear and tear plus heat" type of problems, over time - in my experience. Like the soldering in the volume controls going bad. I am not blaming Aesthetix for this - it happened after ten years of heavy use, with suboptimal ventilation. It wont happen again - I have installed silent computer fans, on the wall, behind the Io.
I also agree that it is well worth it, searching for the best NOS tubes in the most important positions in the Io. Yes, this can sound glorious.
Still, my ears are now very open to the best sound from the LPS / JJ combination (stage 1 and 2) I that I test now. E g I don't listen for what these new production tubes do "wrong" compared to my former Telefunken NOS, but what they do "right", instead. I don't want to get stuck in NOS nostalgia.
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LOL. In 15 years the Sovteks 12AX7LPS will be NOS. For now, my test with the new low noise and matched LPS with the new Aesthetix JJs sounds pretty good to me. Will definitely experiment when I find the time with NOS. But as a good baseline, I am happy with the sound. It is mesmerizing.
Nice to hear, and maybe interesting for other Io users, that Audioquest4life and I - totally independent of each other - seem to be drifting in the same directions.
I wrote an Ebay seller of expensive Telefunken ECC83: can you test them for noise?
Answer: "I think I cannot help you in this question because I don'h have the equipment to test exactly for noise. In my ears these tubes have no noise, but with your ears it could be different. I aslo think that noise depends on the amp you use. Some amps produce more noise other amps produce less (or no) noise, if there is no signal and the volume-knob is on full loudness."
Answer: "I think I cannot help you in this question because I don'h have the equipment to test exactly for noise. In my ears these tubes have no noise, but with your ears it could be different. I aslo think that noise depends on the amp you use. Some amps produce more noise other amps produce less (or no) noise, if there is no signal and the volume-knob is on full loudness."
I would stay away from that vendor. To many red flags. The vendor can’t test the tubes which means that they are mostly being sold for a profit, as is, and no guarantee. Also, the mention of noise at large with different amps and hearing is an attempt to mask the fact that the vendor cannot test the tubes and mentions that low Noise for this vendor may not be low noise for you. Run, run, far away. A few posts back, someone posted that Andy at Vintage Tube Services was able to get tubes for the Io. I called and left a message. He is busy and won’t be in contact until Friday.
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Yes, stay away... Here is from another seller with 10 Tele's that "test good strong":
"Sorry sir, I don’t have such equipment. Also my tube tester got damaged recently so I cannot do any testing.
Regards!"
Seems a bit strange, doesn't it - I cannot find a seller who can test them for noise. Maybe the sad truth is that the silent ones are now long gone. Now where is my time machine, I would like an hour in the factory in Ulm, ca 1966! I'll bring two full bags back to all of you, promise!
"Sorry sir, I don’t have such equipment. Also my tube tester got damaged recently so I cannot do any testing.
Regards!"
Seems a bit strange, doesn't it - I cannot find a seller who can test them for noise. Maybe the sad truth is that the silent ones are now long gone. Now where is my time machine, I would like an hour in the factory in Ulm, ca 1966! I'll bring two full bags back to all of you, promise!
The Amplitrex 1000 is a better tester. It tests both output tubes including 845 and smaller tubes. You don't have to buy two units. It also tests for emissions which the other one says is dangerous and doesn't do. It also applies a higher plate voltage to test for higher accuracy. It also has a built in headphone jack for tube noise no speaker needed.
looks like i'll be hanging around this thread.
just bought a used Aesthetix Io Eclipse, dual power supplies, volume pots, and one analog input. it will be on the way to Aesthetix in Calif for a going over. then on to me. looks to be in excellent condition. excited to get it in my room and find a place to put the beast. i do have space for three warm boxes. i know i need to keep the power supplies away from the preamp section.
tubes are said to be in top shape, not used much. but i'm sure i'll learn i have to get better one's.
might switch the analog input to a second phono. we will see. i did own an Io back in the day, from 1999 to 2001. loved it then.
i already have 2 phonos in my dart preamp, and three phono channels with my CS Port phono, two of which are with SUT's those are all very very low noise. the Io will be less quiet, but bigger and bolder. a good counterpoint. my agenda was to raise the performance of my third Etsuro Gold on my NVS/Tosca to be on par with my other 2.
all five of my cartridges have at least .4 mv of output, so the noise issue should not be a big deal.
just bought a used Aesthetix Io Eclipse, dual power supplies, volume pots, and one analog input. it will be on the way to Aesthetix in Calif for a going over. then on to me. looks to be in excellent condition. excited to get it in my room and find a place to put the beast. i do have space for three warm boxes. i know i need to keep the power supplies away from the preamp section.
tubes are said to be in top shape, not used much. but i'm sure i'll learn i have to get better one's.
might switch the analog input to a second phono. we will see. i did own an Io back in the day, from 1999 to 2001. loved it then.i already have 2 phonos in my dart preamp, and three phono channels with my CS Port phono, two of which are with SUT's those are all very very low noise. the Io will be less quiet, but bigger and bolder. a good counterpoint. my agenda was to raise the performance of my third Etsuro Gold on my NVS/Tosca to be on par with my other 2.
all five of my cartridges have at least .4 mv of output, so the noise issue should not be a big deal.
Welcome to the club Mike ! You are going to love the dynamics and bass capabilities of the 3 box Io, it can truly energize the room.looks like i'll be hanging around this thread.
just bought a used Aesthetix Io Eclipse, dual power supplies, volume pots, and one analog input. it will be on the way to Aesthetix in Calif for a going over. then on to me. looks to be in excellent condition. excited to get it in my room and find a place to put the beast. i do have space for three warm boxes. i know i need to keep the power supplies away from the preamp section.
tubes are said to be in top shape, not used much. but i'm sure i'll learn i have to get better one's.
i already have 2 phonos in my dart preamp, and three phono channels with my CS Port phono, two of which are with SUT's those are all very very low noise. the Io will be less quiet, but bigger and bolder. a good counterpoint. my agenda was to raise the performance of my third Etsuro Gold on my NVS/Tosca to be on par with my other 2.
all five of my cartridges have at least .4 mv of output, so the noise issue should not be a big deal.
Wow ! Mike,looks like i'll be hanging around this thread.
just bought a used Aesthetix Io Eclipse, dual power supplies, volume pots, and one analog input. it will be on the way to Aesthetix in Calif for a going over. then on to me. looks to be in excellent condition. excited to get it in my room and find a place to put the beast. i do have space for three warm boxes. i know i need to keep the power supplies away from the preamp section.
tubes are said to be in top shape, not used much. but i'm sure i'll learn i have to get better one's.
i already have 2 phonos in my dart preamp, and three phono channels with my CS Port phono, two of which are with SUT's those are all very very low noise. the Io will be less quiet, but bigger and bolder. a good counterpoint. my agenda was to raise the performance of my third Etsuro Gold on my NVS/Tosca to be on par with my other 2.
all five of my cartridges have at least .4 mv of output, so the noise issue should not be a big deal.
Looking forward to your impressions . It will be big and powerful. Very excited for you.
Congratulations!
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