AC Power cable "break-in"

[marty]

There have been some interesting discussions on this forum concerning power cable break-in (particularly with respect to, but not limited to, the Zitron alpha digital cables from Shunyata). Some have suggested that several types of devices can facilitate this process. One such device, advocated by jap, is the Hagerman Frytech. This device is essentially a signal generator that transmits wideband noise as well as swept amplitude signals into the power cord wiring to which it is connected. Other devices, such as Shunyata’s “burn-in adapter” portend to facilitate break-in but do not induce any signal of their own into the cable, but rather, allow a new PC to share whatever signal is being passed through the existing PCs in one’s system. (To a great degree, this discussion will be relevant to signal cable break-in as well as there are many well-known devices that claim to be useful for signal cable break-in such as the one popularized by Nordost).

My main concerns are twofold. The first is that I am unaware of any metallurgy principle that suggests that wire has a “memory”. Where is the data to suggest that this can occur? From an experimental viewpoint, one should be able to test this hypothesis easily. For example, if we were to take a number of PCs that were broken in on devices advocated by jap or Caelin and put them in a known system, could a blinded listener then tell, with high probability and confidence, the difference in resultant sound when compared against an identical cable that was not broken in using the same device as the test cable? Very simply put, could they discriminate the broken-in cable from the non-broken in cable with odds that were better than chance? I would love to see the results of such an experiment. There are many audio clubs who meet regularly to conduct listening sessions. Perhaps one of them would like to perform this experiment? It’s easy and straight forward to conduct properly in a blinded fashion. And I’m sure the readers of this forum would be interested in the results.

At the risk of biasing those who intend to perform such an experiment, I’d like to share my understanding of what cable “break-in” entails. My understanding is not anything special or enlightenend, but is based on the known study of metallurgy issues that were well described over 50 years ago. In general, I think a great deal, if not the majority of what we ascribe to a break-in process, is the result of well known phenomenon that occurs when two metals (similar or dissimilar) are placed next to each other after heat stress (caused by the friction of sliding the male prongs into female sockets of the PC cords and their receptacles). In the cooling process, annealing takes place. This has a noted and marked effect on the electron spin resonance of the metals itself. While this material may seem complicated, it is probably at least familiar to most of us who took high school physics. The phenomenon of electron spin resonance (ESR) is based on the fact that an electron is a charged particle which spins around its axis and this causes it to act like a tiny bar magnet. In technical language we say that it has a magnetic moment, the value of which is called the Bohr magneton. Once dissimilar metals interact through friction, electron spin exchange between identical and non¬identical molecules as well as chemical exchange between the paramagnetic molecule and its environment and the interaction of nearby molecules having unpaired spins are some examples of environmental effects which can influence line width and intensity in the ESR spectrum of the metals that are annealing.

All of these things are occurring when a Power cable is plugged into a wall socket or an equipment socket. It is the practical aspects of this which are directly relevant to what we call “break-in”. In essence, it takes time for the ESRs of dissimilar or similar metals to settle down to their lowest ground state which is their noise floor. This is not voodoo. It is not wishful thinking. It is not audiophile philosophy 101. It is physics, plain and simple.

As I mentioned, most of this was discovered and understood in the field of metallurgy 50 years ago as exemplified in these papers:

George Feher and A. F. Kip, Electron Spin Resonance Absorption in Metals. I. Experimental, Phys. Rev. 98,337 (1955).

Dyson, FJ. Electron Spin Resonance Absorption in Metals. II. Theory of Electron Diffusion and the Skin Effect. Phys. Rev. 98, 349–359 (1955)

So now, let’s return to the issue of cable break-in as initially raised using devices which are thought to facilitate this process. Here’s where I’m having trouble. My understanding, and as far as I know this is not contradicted anywhere in the scientific literature, is that cables do not have a “memory”. I do not disagree that break-in using any device such as the FryTech, the burn-in-adapter, the Nordost cable cooker, etc, allows for cable break-in to occur since it is clear that the process of lowering the ground state of ESR in metals occurs each and every time two metals are put into contact with each other using a connection which generates friction. However, since I have no evidence the that break-in process has a memory, it is my belief that when the test cable is disconnected and then inserted into another application (i.e. going from the break-in instrument into one’s real world system) the benefits of the test instrument break-in process are not retained. Rather, once the cable is re-inserted into its final place (your system), I would expect that the cable break-in process occurs again without any retained benefit from that which occurred using a break-in device. However I may be wrong. What I'd like to see is data to help me understand this issue in greater detail.

To summarize, I would like someone to show me either published scientific data to suggest that “cables have a memory”, or the results of an actual experiment, properly conducted, that suggests one can effectively discriminate the sound of a ‘broken-in cable (using one of the aforementioned devices) from one that is not broken in. As I said, this experiment is easily doable and thus the hypothesis is testable. I look forward to learning the results of such an experiment.

As we used to say in Missouri…”show me”!

 

[MylesBAstor]

There have been some interesting discussions on this forum concerning power cable break-in (particularly with respect to, but not limited to, the Zitron alpha digital cables from Shunyata). Some have suggested that several types of devices can facilitate this process. One such device, advocated by jap, is the Hagerman Frytech. This device is essentially a signal generator that transmits wideband noise as well as swept amplitude signals into the power cord wiring to which it is connected. Other devices, such as Shunyata’s “burn-in adapter” portend to facilitate break-in but do no induce any signal of their own into the cable, but rather, allow a new PC to share whatever signal is being passed through the existing PCs in one’s system. (To a great degree, this discussion will be relevant to signal cable break-in as well as there are many well-known devices that claim to be useful for signal cable break-in such as the one popularized by Nordost).

My main concerns are twofold. The first is that I am unaware of any metallurgy principle that suggests that wire has a “memory”. Where is the data to suggest that this can occur? From an experimental viewpoint, one should be able to test this hypothesis easily. For example, if we were to take a number of PCs that were broken in on devices advocated by jap or Caelin and put them in a known system, could a blinded listener then tell, with high probability and confidence, the difference in resultant sound when compared against an identical cable that was not broken in using the same device as the test cable? Very simply put, could they discriminate the broken-in cable from the non-broken in cable with odds that were better than chance? I would love to see the results of such an experiment. There are many audio clubs who meet regularly to conduct listening sessions. Perhaps one of them would like to perform this experiment? It’s easy and straight forward to conduct properly in a blinded fashion. And I’m sure the readers of this forum would be interested in the results.

At the risk of biasing those who intend to perform such an experiment, I’d like to share my understanding of what cable “break-in” entails. My understanding is not anything special or enlightenend, but is based on the known study of metallurgy issues that were well described over 50 years ago. In general, I think a great deal, if not the majority of what we ascribe to a break-in process, is the result of well known phenomenon that occurs when two metals (similar or dissimilar) are placed next to each other after heat stress (caused by the friction of sliding the male prongs into female sockets of the PC cords and their receptacles). In the cooling process, annealing takes place. This has a noted and marked effect on the electron spin resonance of the metals itself. While this material may seem complicated, it is probably at least familiar to most of us who took high school physics. The phenomenon of electron spin resonance (ESR) is based on the fact that an electron is a charged particle which spins around its axis and this causes it to act like a tiny bar magnet. In technical language we say that it has a magnetic moment, the value of which is called the Bohr magneton. Once dissimilar metals interact through friction, electron spin exchange between identical and non¬identical molecules as well as chemical exchange between the paramagnetic molecule and its environment and the interaction of nearby molecules having unpaired spins are some examples of environmental effects which can influence line width and intensity in the ESR spectrum of the metals that are annealing.

All of these things are occurring when a Power cable is plugged into a wall socket or an equipment socket. It is the practical aspects of this which are directly relevant to what we call “break-in”. In essence, it takes time for the ESRs of dissimilar or similar metals to settle down to their lowest ground state which is their noise floor. This is not voodoo. It is not wishful thinking. It is not audiophile philosophy 101. It is physics, plain and simple.

As I mentioned, most of this was discovered and understood in the field of metallurgy 50 years ago as exemplified in these papers:

George Feher and A. F. Kip, Electron Spin Resonance Absorption in Metals. I. Experimental, Phys. Rev. 98,337 (1955).

Dyson, FJ. Electron Spin Resonance Absorption in Metals. II. Theory of Electron Diffusion and the Skin Effect. Phys. Rev. 98, 349–359 (1955)

So now, let’s return to the issue of cable break-in as initially raised using devices which are thought to facilitate this process. Here’s where I’m having trouble. My understanding, and as far as I know this is not contradicted anywhere in the scientific literature, is that cables do not have a “memory”. I do not disagree that break-in using any device such as the FryTech, the burn-in-adapter, the Nordost cable cooker, etc, allows for cable break-in to occur since it is clear that the process of lowering the ground state of ESR in metals occurs each and every time two metals are put into contact with each other using a connection which generates friction. However, since I have no evidence the that break-in process has a memory, it is my belief that when the test cable is disconnected and then inserted into another application (i.e. going from the break-in instrument into one’s real world system) the benefits of the test instrument break-in process are not retained. Rather, once the cable is re-inserted into its final place (your system), I would expect that the cable break-in process occurs again without any retained benefit from that which occurred using a break-in device. However I may be wrong. What I'd like to see is data to help me understand this issue in greater detail.

To summarize, I would like someone to show me either published scientific data to suggest that “cables have a memory”, or the results of an actual experiment, properly conducted, that suggests one can effectively discriminate the sound of a ‘broken-in cable (using one of the aforementioned devices) from one that is not broken in. As I said, this experiment is easily doable and thus the hypothesis is testable. I look forward to learning the results of such an experiment.

As we used to say in Missouri…”show me”!

As they say here, the proof is in the pudding. Perhaps we shouldn't be as concerned with what's going on since we are only making at best a correlation (where there might be twenty other reasons) than a cause-effect. But as an aside, is it possible that the effect is other than with the metal eg. the dielectric that needs to break in just as in caps?

The difference between treated and untreated PC were unmistakable as I wrote in a review. (and I've written about a few going back to the very original Duotech [limited effect] to the G&D [first I heard that had an effect] to the Audiodharma.) And as I wrote, the listening with Audiodharma/Cable Cooker turned out blind because I had mistakenly substituted the untreated for the listening sessions. As far as retaining the "quality," Alan Kafton who makes the Cable Cooker recommends periodic retreatment every six months or so.

 

[DonH50]

The only thing that makes sense to me are die-electric properties such as hysteresis and charge trapping. I have measured those in very high-resolution (100+ dB dynamic range radar systems, and 24-bit audio and instrumentation systems, for example) and very high-frequency (mW/mmW) systems. Nothing I have measured leads me to believe such effects are audible in a cable, but I am an engineer, and sometimes a musician, not an audiophile.

IME capacitor hysteresis is an order of magnitude or more larger than cable effects, and most people do not notice the effects in capacitors in limited tests I have done.

 

[mep]

Audiophiles tend to overthink everything because they are taught to overthink everything by people who have *solutions* in search of a problem. The seed of doubt can always find fertile ground in the mind of an audiophile.

 

[jap]

Marty,

First, the Hagerman Technology PC burn-in signal generator is the FryCorder not the Frytech.

It cost $250. Comes with a 10 year warranty, a 30 day trial period (10% restocking fee) and free shipping.

It generates signals to break-in both magnetic and electrical properties of cables. In other words, it works both conductors and dielectrics (insulators).

According to the owners manual, "Empirical testing has led to the conclusion that most wiring achieves break-in after two or three days of continuous burn. Silver conductors seem to take twice as long as copper."

I've got some new PCs coming next week, and I'll try comparing treated and untreated cables.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Marty,

First, the Hagerman Technology PC burn-in signal generator is the FryCorder not the Frytech.

It cost $250. Comes with a 10 year warranty, a 30 day trial period (10% restocking fee) and free shipping.

It generates signals to break-in both magnetic and electrical properties of cables. In other words, it works both conductors and dielectrics (insulators).

According to the owners manual, "Empirical testing has led to the conclusion that most wiring achieves break-in after two or three days of continuous burn. Silver conductors seem to take twice as long as copper."

I've got some new PCs coming next week, and I'll try comparing treated and untreated cables.

I agree about the Silver cables. It seems they benefit even more than cu cables from burn-in.

 

[marty]

Myles and jap,
With respect to the FryCorder (thanks for the correction) and Cable Cooker, you'll have to forgive me for my skepticism if the folks selling these devices tell us that they not only work, but in some cases they should be used "every 6 months". All I am asking for is data; blinded listening tests preferably. Could some of their accrued benefits be due to "twenty other reasons" as Myles correctly points out, other than the annealing process and reduction of ESR that I hypothesized as a prominent cause of "burn in"? Of course. In fact, I believe it was HP who first told us years ago that a simple disconnect and reconnect of our cables every year or so was mandatory to improve the sound due to the elimination or reduction of increased oxidation of the connector surfaces (a good cleaning with a simple non-residue solvent didn't hurt either).

To be clear, I do not refute Myles' assertion that he can hear the benefits of a treated cable as I find myself largely in sympatico with his sonic observations throughout the years, but my query still remains unanswered. I am data driven and just want to see the result of a correctly performed, blinded experiment that suggests whether cable has a memory such that the listener can readily distinguish the sound of a cable broken-in by a device, from an untreated cable, when either are newly placed in their system.

 

[microstrip]

IMHO we still do not know why power cables makes our systems sound so different - no one could correlate their electrical and mechanical properties with sound properties in stereo. In such situation we can not expect to discover what is really important in cable burn-in.

We can easily find a few physical properties of cables that can experience some very small changes due to burn-in, but wise electrical engineers will probably tell us that the are not relevant in the performance of electronic circuits.

And yes, I am believer of power cables and burn-in in cables. I recently sold all my old Shunyata Helix power cables and Hydra, and the new models will not be delivered before a few weeks. Using cheap good quality mains cables was really a back step in my system - even my usual music lover type friends are complaining!

 

[jap]

Myles and jap,
With respect to the FryCorder (thanks for the correction) and Cable Cooker, you'll have to forgive me for my skepticism if the folks selling these devices tell us that they not only work, but in some cases they should be used "every 6 months". All I am asking for is data; blinded listening tests preferably. Could some of their accrued benefits be due to "twenty other reasons" as Myles correctly points out, other than the annealing process and reduction of ESR that I ascribed to as a prominent cause of "burn in"? Of course. In fact, I believe it was HP who first told us years ago that a simple disconnect and reconnect of our cables every year or so was mandatory to improve the sound due to the elimination or reduction of increased oxidation of the connector surfaces (a good cleaning with a simple non-residue solvent didn't hurt either).

To be clear, I do not refute Myles' assertion that he can hear the benefits of a treated cable as I find myself largely in sympatico with his sonic observations throughout the years, but my query still remains unanswered. I am data driven and just want to see the result of a correctly performed, blinded experiment that suggests whether cable has a memory such that the listener can readily distinguish the sound of a cable broken-in by a device, from an untreated cable, when either are newly placed in their system.

Marty,

I think the only way your query will be answered is to perform the blind experiment yourself.

I'm sure you can afford $250. for a FryCorder and can get a local SR dealer to loan you two new PCs for the experiment.

If you find the FryCorder doesn't work, you can return it and you're out $25., plus the cost of a USPS Priority Mail small Flat Rate box. BTW, Mr.Hagerman told me he's never had one of his burn-in devices come back.

Maybe you can get Myles to come over to Jersey and bring his unit.

 

[Steve Williams]

Marty,

I think the only way your query will be answered is to perform the blind experiment yourself.

I'm sure you can afford $250. for a FryCorder and can get a local SR dealer to loan you two new PCs for the experiment.

If you find the FryCorder doesn't work, you can return it and you're out $25., plus the cost of a USPS Priority Mail small Flat Rate box. BTW, Mr.Hagerman told me he's never had one of his burn-in devices come back.

Maybe you can get Myles to come over to Jersey and bring his unit.

Great suggestion

 

[Gregadd]

The only thing that makes sense to me are die-electric properties such as hysteresis and charge trapping. I have measured those in very high-resolution (100+ dB dynamic range radar systems, and 24-bit audio and instrumentation systems, for example) and very high-frequency (mW/mmW) systems. Nothing I have measured leads me to believe such effects are audible in a cable, but I am an engineer, and sometimes a musician, not an audiophile.

IME capacitor hysteresis is an order of magnitude or more larger than cable effects, and most people do not notice the effects in capacitors in limited tests I have done.

Don you are an audiophile. Your choice of audio components says so. Plenty of audiophiles share your opinion on cables. An audiophile is someone
who is enthusiastic about sound reproduction.

Mariam Webster.

 

[j_j]

IMHO we still do not know why power cables makes our systems sound so different - no one could correlate their electrical and mechanical properties with sound properties in stereo.

I have read a couple of papers that suggest that power cables are effectively very good line filters, mostly filtering diode bridge noise that is reflected back into the line.

This is not "no correlation", frankly, but more work is required, to say the least.

 

[BlueFox]

The short answer here is that while we have a basic understanding of electrical theory that allows us to use it, we most likely have only scratched the surface of electrical knowledge. As we learn more, and discover new areas to measure, we will get closer to understanding and explaining how power cables, and other cables, are able to make such an obvious and profound difference in audio quality.

If you are going to wait until something can be fully explained before actually using it then you are the one losing out.

 

[ack]

What Don said - dielectric properties; for networked (e.g. MIT, Shunyata et al) cables, additional break-in for the RC (or RLC) components included. Here's MIT's write-up on break-in, taken from a manual...

 

[Speedskater]

"ack" that dielectric memory only applies to some types of capacitors in DC circuits. In an AC circuit that memory gets erased every one half cycle.

 

[ack]

"ack" that dielectric memory only applies to some types of capacitors in DC circuits. In an AC circuit that memory gets erased every one half cycle.

Your statement would imply that dielectric absorption (the memory) does not exist in a capacitor in an AC circuit (that would imply no hysteresis) - not only is this not true, but the entire Zitron patent (A method and apparatus for reducing dielectric polarization and dielectric relaxation within a signal wire by partially neutralizing the electric charge differential within the dielectric material between the signal conductor and the surrounding insulating dielectric material) and circuit attempt to address this very same effect.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

There have been some interesting discussions on this forum concerning power cable break-in (particularly with respect to, but not limited to, the Zitron alpha digital cables from Shunyata). Some have suggested that several types of devices can facilitate this process. One such device, advocated by jap, is the Hagerman Frytech. This device is essentially a signal generator that transmits wideband noise as well as swept amplitude signals into the power cord wiring to which it is connected. Other devices, such as Shunyata’s “burn-in adapter” portend to facilitate break-in but do not induce any signal of their own into the cable, but rather, allow a new PC to share whatever signal is being passed through the existing PCs in one’s system. (To a great degree, this discussion will be relevant to signal cable break-in as well as there are many well-known devices that claim to be useful for signal cable break-in such as the one popularized by Nordost).

My main concerns are twofold. The first is that I am unaware of any metallurgy principle that suggests that wire has a “memory”. Where is the data to suggest that this can occur? From an experimental viewpoint, one should be able to test this hypothesis easily. For example, if we were to take a number of PCs that were broken in on devices advocated by jap or Caelin and put them in a known system, could a blinded listener then tell, with high probability and confidence, the difference in resultant sound when compared against an identical cable that was not broken in using the same device as the test cable? Very simply put, could they discriminate the broken-in cable from the non-broken in cable with odds that were better than chance? I would love to see the results of such an experiment. There are many audio clubs who meet regularly to conduct listening sessions. Perhaps one of them would like to perform this experiment? It’s easy and straight forward to conduct properly in a blinded fashion. And I’m sure the readers of this forum would be interested in the results.

At the risk of biasing those who intend to perform such an experiment, I’d like to share my understanding of what cable “break-in” entails. My understanding is not anything special or enlightenend, but is based on the known study of metallurgy issues that were well described over 50 years ago. In general, I think a great deal, if not the majority of what we ascribe to a break-in process, is the result of well known phenomenon that occurs when two metals (similar or dissimilar) are placed next to each other after heat stress (caused by the friction of sliding the male prongs into female sockets of the PC cords and their receptacles). In the cooling process, annealing takes place. This has a noted and marked effect on the electron spin resonance of the metals itself. While this material may seem complicated, it is probably at least familiar to most of us who took high school physics. The phenomenon of electron spin resonance (ESR) is based on the fact that an electron is a charged particle which spins around its axis and this causes it to act like a tiny bar magnet. In technical language we say that it has a magnetic moment, the value of which is called the Bohr magneton. Once dissimilar metals interact through friction, electron spin exchange between identical and non¬identical molecules as well as chemical exchange between the paramagnetic molecule and its environment and the interaction of nearby molecules having unpaired spins are some examples of environmental effects which can influence line width and intensity in the ESR spectrum of the metals that are annealing.

All of these things are occurring when a Power cable is plugged into a wall socket or an equipment socket. It is the practical aspects of this which are directly relevant to what we call “break-in”. In essence, it takes time for the ESRs of dissimilar or similar metals to settle down to their lowest ground state which is their noise floor. This is not voodoo. It is not wishful thinking. It is not audiophile philosophy 101. It is physics, plain and simple.

As I mentioned, most of this was discovered and understood in the field of metallurgy 50 years ago as exemplified in these papers:

George Feher and A. F. Kip, Electron Spin Resonance Absorption in Metals. I. Experimental, Phys. Rev. 98,337 (1955).

Dyson, FJ. Electron Spin Resonance Absorption in Metals. II. Theory of Electron Diffusion and the Skin Effect. Phys. Rev. 98, 349–359 (1955)

So now, let’s return to the issue of cable break-in as initially raised using devices which are thought to facilitate this process. Here’s where I’m having trouble. My understanding, and as far as I know this is not contradicted anywhere in the scientific literature, is that cables do not have a “memory”. I do not disagree that break-in using any device such as the FryTech, the burn-in-adapter, the Nordost cable cooker, etc, allows for cable break-in to occur since it is clear that the process of lowering the ground state of ESR in metals occurs each and every time two metals are put into contact with each other using a connection which generates friction. However, since I have no evidence the that break-in process has a memory, it is my belief that when the test cable is disconnected and then inserted into another application (i.e. going from the break-in instrument into one’s real world system) the benefits of the test instrument break-in process are not retained. Rather, once the cable is re-inserted into its final place (your system), I would expect that the cable break-in process occurs again without any retained benefit from that which occurred using a break-in device. However I may be wrong. What I'd like to see is data to help me understand this issue in greater detail.

To summarize, I would like someone to show me either published scientific data to suggest that “cables have a memory”, or the results of an actual experiment, properly conducted, that suggests one can effectively discriminate the sound of a ‘broken-in cable (using one of the aforementioned devices) from one that is not broken in. As I said, this experiment is easily doable and thus the hypothesis is testable. I look forward to learning the results of such an experiment.

As we used to say in Missouri…”show me”!

Break-in and physics be damned, is there even any published, scientific data to suggest that there is any audible difference between a bog standard power cable and a high-end one? I don't often open these cable threads, but I can't ever recall seeing any such data.

Tim

 

[edorr]

Break-in and physics be damned, is there even any published, scientific data to suggest that there is any audible difference between a bog standard power cable and a high-end one? I don't often open these cable threads, but I can't ever recall seeing any such data.

Tim

Not do I care for that matter.

 

[microstrip]

Break-in and physics be damned, is there even any published, scientific data to suggest that there is any audible difference between a bog standard power cable and a high-end one? I don't often open these cable threads, but I can't ever recall seeing any such data.

Tim

Tim,

It is funny that people still expect to find scientific data in audio forums ... Now-a-days science is found in copyrighted journals accessible through paid subscriptions or scientific libraries. And I doubt that any of them be interested in papers about high-end audio power cables ...

 

[rockitman]

I was using the top end AC-12 8 gauge PS Audio power cord on my Pass XP-25 phono stage. It's construction is top rate. I switched it out for a Nordost Valhalla. What a difference. The PS Audio made the pre sound dark. The Valhalla made it come to life with much more sparkle, air and clarity. I am starting to believe power cords make a bigger difference in the sound than IC's. I need no empirical scientific data to come up with this conclusion...My ears are the best judge. Power cords matter !