A Plea For High-End Audio Manufacturer Honesty and Transparency

[Rt66indierock]

true


That's a positive question. I'm going to give you a normative answer.

My personal opinion is that they should care! When you're charging tens of thousands of dollars and, today, in many cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think the manufacturer has a responsibility to test the product in a variety of electrical infrastructure and associated component environments.

Why should they bother. You wouldn’t even do a basic test of fidelity play Pet Sounds.

Your comment is at the very basic level of quality control. Most audio equipment is not tested adequately. Here is an example from a recent Magico S5 loudspeaker in Stereophile of the type engineering and testing that should standard practice.

Alon Wolf is a big fan of the Klippel: "The Klippel allows us to have coherent measurement down to 20Hz, which is something that you cannot achieve in an anechoic chamber. I'm not aware of a chamber that is big enough. Even in the NRC [chamber in Ottawa], the measurements are only really viable down to 150Hz." He discussed how the design process used to be: "You design a speaker, everything is looking good, then you listen. You decide to change something a little bit. Sometimes a deviation of just half a dB makes a difference. You can spend months working on that voicing. And then you take the loudspeaker to another room, and it's not quite there. It's just an endless process. [With the Klippel] I don't need to do any voicing whatsoever. It's just amazing. The speaker comes out optimized in terms of performance and voicing. ... There's nothing for me to add. It allows us to build products that, at least from an engineering perspective, are as good as it gets."

 

[microstrip]

I tend to agree, especially since most of them are are not real engineers so they know little about QC and the design and testing towards that end.

What do you really mean by such an ambiguous comment? Just that high-end manufacturers do not have engineers in their teams? Or something more specific?

 

[gleeds]

I tend to agree, especially since most of them are are not real engineers so they know little about QC and the design and testing towards that end.

Steven Norber most certainly knows how to test loudspeakers, and in my nearly 50 years of experience, there are few better at it. Steve's experience within those 35 years includes numerous loudspeaker designs (including, most recently, for Von Schweikert) and notable amplifier designs for Edge Electronics and Prana Fidelity.

Of course, all manufacturers should understand QC well and implement best practices concerning what leaves their shop.

 

[microstrip]

Why should they bother. You wouldn’t even do a basic test of fidelity play Pet Sounds.

Your comment is at the very basic level of quality control. Most audio equipment is not tested adequately. Here is an example from a recent Magico S5 loudspeaker in Stereophile of the type engineering and testing that should standard practice.

Alon Wolf is a big fan of the Klippel: "The Klippel allows us to have coherent measurement down to 20Hz, which is something that you cannot achieve in an anechoic chamber. I'm not aware of a chamber that is big enough. Even in the NRC [chamber in Ottawa], the measurements are only really viable down to 150Hz." He discussed how the design process used to be: "You design a speaker, everything is looking good, then you listen. You decide to change something a little bit. Sometimes a deviation of just half a dB makes a difference. You can spend months working on that voicing. And then you take the loudspeaker to another room, and it's not quite there. It's just an endless process. [With the Klippel] I don't need to do any voicing whatsoever. It's just amazing. The speaker comes out optimized in terms of performance and voicing. ... There's nothing for me to add. It allows us to build products that, at least from an engineering perspective, are as good as it gets."

Unfortunately you are quoting just an info-commercial from Alon Wolf, just addressing a particular aspect - bass reproduction and taken out of context.
And surely his "engineering perspective" looks very limited if does not go beyond the Klippel.

Many tens of speaker manufacturers own the Klippel system, many even before Magico owned it - an excellent measuring tool, but no proof at all of an excellently designed speaker.

BTW, how do you imagine he will design the next version of the S5? Just using a new AI tool connected to the Klippel system and telling it to make a better speaker after reading WBF?

 

[Audiohertz2]

Why should they bother. You wouldn’t even do a basic test of fidelity play Pet Sounds.

Your comment is at the very basic level of quality control. Most audio equipment is not tested adequately. Here is an example from a recent Magico S5 loudspeaker in Stereophile of the type engineering and testing that should standard practice.

Alon Wolf is a big fan of the Klippel: "The Klippel allows us to have coherent measurement down to 20Hz, which is something that you cannot achieve in an anechoic chamber. I'm not aware of a chamber that is big enough. Even in the NRC [chamber in Ottawa], the measurements are only really viable down to 150Hz." He discussed how the design process used to be: "You design a speaker, everything is looking good, then you listen. You decide to change something a little bit. Sometimes a deviation of just half a dB makes a difference. You can spend months working on that voicing. And then you take the loudspeaker to another room, and it's not quite there. It's just an endless process. [With the Klippel] I don't need to do any voicing whatsoever. It's just amazing. The speaker comes out optimized in terms of performance and voicing. ... There's nothing for me to add. It allows us to build products that, at least from an engineering perspective, are as good as it gets."

Interesting comment , so those speakers are voiced by the Klippel ..!

 

[Rt66indierock]

Steven Norber most certainly knows how to test loudspeakers, and in my nearly 50 years of experience, there are few better at it. Steve's experience within those 35 years includes numerous loudspeaker designs (including, most recently, for Von Schweikert) and notable amplifier designs for Edge Electronics and Prana Fidelity.

Of course, all manufacturers should understand QC well and implement best practices concerning what leaves their shop.

But is he an engineer?

 

[Rt66indierock]

Unfortunately you are quoting just an info-commercial from Alon Wolf, just addressing a particular aspect - bass reproduction and taken out of context.
And surely his "engineering perspective" looks very limited if does not go beyond the Klippel.

Many tens of speaker manufacturers own the Klippel system, many even before Magico owned it - an excellent measuring tool, but no proof at all of an excellently designed speaker.

BTW, how do you imagine he will design the next version of the S5? Just using a new AI tool connected to the Klippel system and telling it to make a better speaker after reading WBF?

I said this was an example of the kind of engineering and testing that should be standard. The reviewer John Atkinson and I had dinner a couple years ago in Los Angeles. We talked mainly about measurements, and he wished he had a Klippel system.

You seem touchy so let me add my reference albums and recordings are very hard on speakers. The music hasn’t changed since 1982 when I added the Nightfly. I do rerecord the reference recordings to take advantage of advances in recording techniques.

 

[Rt66indierock]

Interesting comment , so those speakers are voiced by the Klippel ..!

If the Klippel isn’t part of the voicing processes you need to ask some really hard questions about why they don’t.

 

[microstrip]

I said this was an example of the kind of engineering and testing that should be standard. The reviewer John Atkinson and I had dinner a couple years ago in Los Angeles. We talked mainly about measurements, and he wished he had a Klippel system.

Surely JA would like to have such a system to provide him more and better quality technical information with a small fraction of the effort. But I do not see the interest of Stereophile in publishing it.

You seem touchy so let me add my reference albums and recordings are very hard on speakers. The music hasn’t changed since 1982 when I added the Nightfly. I do rerecord the reference recordings to take advantage of advances in recording techniques.

Sorry, having done a lot of engineering tasks and trained engineers, I feel disappointed that people exhibit a measurement system as proof of engineering quality. Speaker engineering transcends it by far.

 

[Audiohertz2]

If the Klippel isn’t part of the voicing processes you need to ask some really hard questions about why they don’t.

Because its not the only way to measure and voice in a system..

 

[Audiohertz2]

Surely JA would like to have such a system to provide him more and better quality technical information with a small fraction of the effort. But I do not see the interest of Stereophile in publishing it.



Sorry, having done a lot of engineering tasks and trained engineers, I feel disappointed that people exhibit a measurement system as proof of engineering quality. Speaker engineering transcends it by far.

JA has been taken to task on many occasions as he refuses to drag loudspeakers outdoors for GP measurements (superior to anechoic measurements ) , so yes i can see him and many others preferring to go full Klippel, nice and lazy …

 

[Holmz]

true


That's a positive question. I'm going to give you a normative answer.

My personal opinion is that they should care! When you're charging tens of thousands of dollars and, today, in many cases, hundreds of thousands of dollars, I think the manufacturer has a responsibility to test the product in a variety of electrical infrastructure and associated component environments.

Test it for what exactly?

Almost all engineers know some physics, and can design circuits to deal with the commonly known issues.

As the thread is about honesty and transparency… we have every other company selling grounding solutions from boxes full of dirt, reindeer excrement, and Scandinavian gravel and all sorts of power conditioners.
And twisted pairs and differential lines are pretty common, but a lot of high end gear is single ended.
And fuses… oh my gawd.

If one went into any marine, airplane, or spacecraft place with these ideas, they would be calling their security guards, or a psych ward.

The only thing I recall recently seeing was the Swiss digital fuse, which seems like something right out of race cars and probably planes… and makes a lot of sense.

 

[Holmz]

The number people in high end audio who know how to test is very small. I don’t know if there are many actual electrical engineers. I do know for sure there are very few who are Professional Engineers. A credential similar to my CPA license.

100%

 

[Holmz]

…
Sorry, having done a lot of engineering tasks and trained engineers, I feel disappointed that people exhibit a measurement system as proof of engineering quality. Speaker engineering transcends it by far.

That seems possibly a bit convoluted…
Or I might be reading out of order?

The engineering often comes first, and the measurements confirm it.
Or the measurements show some issues that is then iterated on to fix.
The existence of the measurement devices only, or mostly, show that there is some attention to detail happening, and it is not all “magical voicing.”

Sure the British “voiced” speakers in a legendary way, but that only seems right if one like a V-shaped frequensy response.
It would not be considered to be accurate engineering wise.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The only thing I recall recently seeing was the Swiss digital fuse, which seems like something right out of race cars and probably planes… and makes a lot of sense.

Why taking a device made to protect circuits involving currents of many tens or hundred amperes to equipment most time dragging less than one ampere? Mains impedance is tipically around 0.2~0.5 ohm - changes of a few tens of miliohms in series with it are theoretically meaningless if the gear is properly designed in terms of engineering. Engineering is extremely important in terms of reliability and safety, but the fact is that we are still not able to correlate subjective sound quality in a definitive with "engineering rules" .

Audiophiles with an engineering background know they are moving in swampy waters. Every time we spend more than $10 on a cable we are denying "engineering rules".

 

[Holmz]

…
Audiophiles with an engineering background know they are moving in swampy waters. Every time we spend more than $10 on a cable we are denying "engineering rules".

And the allure of the cables has a strong pull, even when we know that they should not, and when there is not “specs” associated with said cables/devices/etc.

 

[microstrip]

Test it for what exactly?

Excellent question. Some people ask for engineering tests like if it was a wine tasting event.

 

[microstrip]

And the allure of the cables has a strong pull, even when we know that they should not, and when there is not “specs” associated with said cables/devices/etc.

Well, I always measure mine for R, L, C and bandwidth - not for sound quality, but to be sure I am not getting fakes!

 

[Holmz]

Excellent question. Some people ask for engineering tests like if it was a wine tasting event.

Those Swiss digital fuses remind me of there race car devices:

https://www.motec.com.au/products/PDM30?catId=5

Pretty cool stuff, and makes a lot of sense for a race car por airplane.

 

[Holmz]

Well, I always measure mine for R, L, C and bandwidth - not for sound quality, but to be sure I am not getting fakes!

The sort of funny part about it that we know that R, L, and C measuring all zero is optimal…
But we may actually prefer the sound of something that is bandwidth limited or bandwidth shaping…
It is somewhat of an odd paradox.