A $42,000 transport.
- Thread starter KeithR
- Start date
It's funny how everything in this hobby ends up as a competition. This x That.
Why can't people accept streaming *ALONG* with their physical media (vinyl or CD)? Just the convenience of it would make me an adopter.
If it's really music we're really going after, one would think the more/easier the better, no?
All I know is that, "what's best" aside, I can't live without streaming anymore. Yet I do like to sit down with a proper record and scan proper liner notes. There's a time and place for everything.
cheers,
alex
Why can't people accept streaming *ALONG* with their physical media (vinyl or CD)? Just the convenience of it would make me an adopter.
If it's really music we're really going after, one would think the more/easier the better, no?
All I know is that, "what's best" aside, I can't live without streaming anymore. Yet I do like to sit down with a proper record and scan proper liner notes. There's a time and place for everything.
cheers,
alex
I think this smiley is more appropriate!
I debated in my mind a
ver$e$ a and figured a $miley would be too encouraging. I really don't want to get into dollar$.Asiufy, you're various upbeat messages on streaming, and the SGM in particular, along especially with my on average monthly exposure to the SGM in a stellar sounding system, is keeping me onside re possibly/probably going down this route
The cost thing is immaterial/irrelevant, if you must have the best, then the DCS, Wadax and JMF transports are out there, cost no object and engineered to outperform
For me, my "lowly" all in one €10k Eera Tentation cdp does things I've not heard any other cdp do, and at 7kg is as far from the OTT build of these monster transports as you can get
Certainly if I spend big on digital again, it'll be on the SGM w T&A Dac8 or Formula, not an uber transport and dac
Otoh, it looks like there's a small but significant number of guys who prefer the sound of discs spinning to files incl JFrech with his top Vivaldi stack
It looks like files eek out more detail and resolution, but cds portray a more rounded holistic picture, if JFrech's experience anything to go by
And for my part, native dsd etc is of no real interest, 16/44 is where it's at for me re Golden Age recordings, and my weakness for progressive rock and fusion
Audiophile DSD does nothing for me
Ally that with my near pathological aversion to all things computer/non tactile, and I remain in the cd camp
And with so much effort put into special edition box sets of CDs and Blu Rays, yes, even the humble 5" silver disc gets my adrenaline rising faster than negotiating The Cloud
The cost thing is immaterial/irrelevant, if you must have the best, then the DCS, Wadax and JMF transports are out there, cost no object and engineered to outperform
For me, my "lowly" all in one €10k Eera Tentation cdp does things I've not heard any other cdp do, and at 7kg is as far from the OTT build of these monster transports as you can get
Certainly if I spend big on digital again, it'll be on the SGM w T&A Dac8 or Formula, not an uber transport and dac
Otoh, it looks like there's a small but significant number of guys who prefer the sound of discs spinning to files incl JFrech with his top Vivaldi stack
It looks like files eek out more detail and resolution, but cds portray a more rounded holistic picture, if JFrech's experience anything to go by
And for my part, native dsd etc is of no real interest, 16/44 is where it's at for me re Golden Age recordings, and my weakness for progressive rock and fusion
Audiophile DSD does nothing for me
Ally that with my near pathological aversion to all things computer/non tactile, and I remain in the cd camp
And with so much effort put into special edition box sets of CDs and Blu Rays, yes, even the humble 5" silver disc gets my adrenaline rising faster than negotiating The Cloud
The point is not to have pulses racing on a discussion, but rather to discuss the sonic differences or merits of the two approaches. For an analog guy like me who is contemplating adding digital, I am in the research stages and would be interested in learning more about this topic. No attempt to start a flaming war. Nothing of the sort. People discuss, sincerely, and often with passion, the differences they hear between different typologies. You have certainly done that with your rim drive versus the belts, or your passion for SETs and efficient speakers. I'm asking for a similar discussion about digital delivery methods, nothing more. If no one is interested, so be it.
Alex, that is fine. I don't see it so much as a competition, but rather a discussion about the merits of different approaches. It is not a question of accepting one or both and living in harmony. Convenience is certainly one aspect and advantage for streaming. But as this is the "What's Best Forum", I for one am interested in the sonic differences between the two which could then be weighted against cost/convenience, collecting, and any other differences when making a decision about the various digital formats and delivery methods. It certainly does not have to be discussed, but why not? This is a thread about a $42,000 DAC and what advantages it might or might not bring to SOTA digital playback.
I much prefer my monthly subscription for On Demand video service to my old VHS tapes or DVDs. It is not about that for me, it is about which sounds better and why, regardless of cost or convenience. It is just a discussion.
Hello Peter,
I think the discussion you're wanting to have is very valid and relevant to many of us, but I think to a degree it's limited to the nature of what we're comparing. In vinyl for instance, the variables inherent in comparing turntable typology, arms, carts, loading and setup make meaningful comparisons difficult (though not impossible). For me, it's not too dissimilar in regard to streaming/CD/SACD - not only because we're often comparing differing formats (sometimes with bespoke mastering) but because very often the variables of connection (AES/EBU, SPDIF, I2S, optical, USB, ethernet), format (DSD, DXD, PCM, WAV, FLAC, etc) and processing (digital file management software/interface, up-sampling, down-sampling, server settings) mean comparisons between physical media versus file-based storage encompass similar variables which themselves can be varied.
I wish I could give some hard and fasts, but given the multitude of ways ones can collect, manage and access digital media, personal preference often plays more of a role than sound quality per se, which is of course, no different to any other aspect of reproduction.
Hopefully, someone other than myself can provide more concrete examples.
Best,
853guy
Those of us (well me!) who lack a dedicated room for our audio toys have to share the entertainment space with the entire family. In my situation, I use a Mac Mini with an attached Thunderbolt array to store all of my music and my other iTunes library for movies etc. I know of no current product (that I can afford) that would allow me to remove the computer entirely from the equation and serve up both music and video to the house as the Mini currently does. Innuous comes pretty close but speaking with them in Munich, I would have still needed to leave the Mini in the system.
Sure I can kludge a few products together to get what I need but it's not going to sound much better than what I currently have and it will most likely be a lot harder to use. Between Roon for music and AppleTV for everything else things work pretty seamlessly and have been bulletproof in that in 3 years i have had one drive replacement and no major computer glitches for a system that is on 24/7.
Verdict for now is that an audio server just isn't worth it right now, and the Mac will stay in the system for now.
Beau
Sure I can kludge a few products together to get what I need but it's not going to sound much better than what I currently have and it will most likely be a lot harder to use. Between Roon for music and AppleTV for everything else things work pretty seamlessly and have been bulletproof in that in 3 years i have had one drive replacement and no major computer glitches for a system that is on 24/7.
Verdict for now is that an audio server just isn't worth it right now, and the Mac will stay in the system for now.
Beau
Hi 853guy,
I appreciate your point and thank you for making it so clearly. There seem to be an extreme number of variables in digital audio right now, many of which I don't even know of. Yes, I think direct comparisons and meaningful conclusions can be both difficult to do and reach. And of course, Al M.'s refrain that it is much if not all about implementation, might well be worth considering too. Perhaps it will all depend on what is available to the individual and what his realistic options actually are. The owner of a complete Vivaldi stack may be in the best position to directly compare the available options within that particular universe. I appreciate jfrech's comments even though a Vivaldi stack is an unrealistic option for me.
Steaming and spinning disks seem to be different experiences, as you mention. And everyone will have their preferences. But the key question is what are those differences - so people can choose the appropriate experience based on their personal goals, not another's goals or someone's imagination of "real " that only exists in their mind. Alex, any insight? Thanks
Keith, there are lots of reasons why disc spinning is still relevant
One is unfamiliarity, lack of feel/confidence w computer audio
To be honest, the SGM is the first device to make me consider ditching cd
But in silver disc's twilight, there are lots of collectable/packaging reasons to stay loyal
For me, the move to SGM and its uber friendly interface is my entry point
No hip reverse snobbism from me
One is unfamiliarity, lack of feel/confidence w computer audio
To be honest, the SGM is the first device to make me consider ditching cd
But in silver disc's twilight, there are lots of collectable/packaging reasons to stay loyal
For me, the move to SGM and its uber friendly interface is my entry point
No hip reverse snobbism from me
I would want to see -160db noise, vanishing jitter.... but it probably has like +10db noise so it'll sound different. Aside from a quiet operation and long lasting (maybe) drive, what makes it of any real value beside being pretty to look at? Transports... bits are bits and the other factor is noise, that's it. Now DAC's... that is where it all gets interesting and the $ buys you a lot more.
Btw I don't think I trust them, it says something about keeping analogue circuitry progected? There is no analogue section is a transport with nk DAC...
Btw I don't think I trust them, it says something about keeping analogue circuitry progected? There is no analogue section is a transport with nk DAC...
Servers and optimised PCs vary to an incredible degree as unless well optimised send tons of hash and noise down USB. Some transports output via i2S direct to the DAC chip so may well surpass even the best servers. My tests have proved to me anyway, a nicely optimised server sans SMPS and outputting via ethernet can beat 90% of transports IMO. And that server can be done for 2-3k max. Personally I moved on from CDPs years back and won't go back. Quite possibly an Audio Note CD5 may fit better with my own DAC, but I am not convinced the gains are worth the cost. Moving away from USB made such a big difference, I firmly believe I am in the top tier CDP territory anyway. And don't discount the recent advances in SQ with A+, Roon or HQP.
I think it's important to also view the whole transport question in terms of the actual musical approach of the user.
if one is into legacy CD's and mostly rock-pop-jazz then silver discs make complete sense as the main focus since that is where both the older music and current offerings are.
OTOH if one is seriously into classical, now the whole high resolution issue starts to tip the scales dramatically in favor of files and optimization for those files.
once a classical listener tastes what 88/24, 96/24, 176/24 and 192/24 can do for classical, and then they listen to 352/384-24/32 dxd files become the better choice. and most of this music is now mastered in these higher resolutions.
SACD discs do somewhat respond to this issue, but fall short of competing head on.....and ripping SACD's into dsd files is now quite easy and accessible.
and no transport gets into the dxd--Quad dsd territory in terms of performance.
I've done the comparison three times and all three times the files beat the discs, albeit by very small margins. The first experiments over a decade ago was a Meridian 800 series transport into both a dcs DAC (with dcs clock/resample) and a DEQX crossover. More recently a Core Audio server feeding an MSB transport slaved to an MSB DAC.
The user interface of files trounces discs, so for me it's been an easy call.
caesar,
What I meant to say is that, even if we believe there is a difference on either side (files/discs), why not do BOTH, and find out for yourself what those SQ differences are? After all, it's impossible to come out with hard and fast rules "files are better" x "discs are better", since it's so system dependant, and of course, listener dependant!
My plea was for folks to give it a try. That's all.
And, in my experience, a good transport, from the same brand as your DAC, with proper clocking/enslaving through proprietary interfaces, will beat *most* streamers and *all* computers. The reason being that the streamers will be noisier, and utilize a poorer interface (USB most likely). Again, not a "rule", just an observation.
So, if all you want to do is *add* streaming to your digital, and you're fine with its SQ being a tad below your discs, you can do it on the cheap, and enjoy an immense catalog of music with Tidal/Qobuz.
Now, once you're hooked to what streaming brings to the table, you can step up your game, and get a proper streamer, or even better, a network renderer for your DAC. Something like an SGM will deliver on both counts, convenience and SQ. Then it becomes your choice whether to dump the spinning disc transport altogether.
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