A Bright Shining Lie…Why ignoring an inconvenient truth is stifling system performance a blog from Roy Gregory

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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It sounds to me as if you've missed the point.

Here it is again: If the amplifier has a high output impedance, you may have to move the speaker a bit to optimize it in the room.

Its not about system synergies otherwise.

I haven’t missed the point lol. I don’t agree with it being some form of epiphany!! It is common sense.

You attributed only this high output impedance to SET in your example and in fact same applies here for push pull ARC. That is the difference.

It is about system synergy otherwise imho - I don’t agree with the whole hypothesis.

It is perfectly possible to have low impedance output stage amp without sufficient current to drive the speaker and same issues will result.
 
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Atmasphere

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I haven’t missed the point lol. I don’t agree with it being some form of epiphany!! It is common sense.

You attributed only this high output impedance to SET in your example and in fact same applies here for push pull ARC. That is the difference.

It is about system synergy otherwise imho - I don’t agree with the whole hypothesis.

It is perfectly possible to have low impedance output stage amp without sufficient current to drive the speaker and same issues will result.
I didn't use the example of an SET so much as output impedance. Please re-read my prior post on this topic. Because the ARC also has a higher output impedance it too would exhibit this phenomena. Your last statement points to the issue of output impedance. If its too high, there will not be sufficient current.
 

Audiophile Bill

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I didn't use the example of an SET so much as output impedance. Please re-read my prior post on this topic. Because the ARC also has a higher output impedance it too would exhibit this phenomena. Your last statement points to the issue of output impedance. If its too high, there will not be sufficient current.

You used example of SET specifically in the verbiage hence why I bothered to reply in first place lol. Never mind.
 

Atmasphere

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You used example of SET specifically in the verbiage hence why I bothered to reply in first place lol. Never mind.
Here is my text. You can see that I used SETs as an example, but pay attention to the part where I added emphasis. Am I being too specific here?

Hm. If the amplifier is acting as a voltage source and the new amp to be compared does too, it seems unlikely there would be any need to move speakers.

OTOH if the output impedance of the amp is high enough that the amp behaves as a power source (for example, most SETs made)
 

Audiophile Bill

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Here is my text. You can see that I used SETs as an example, but pay attention to the part where I added emphasis. Am I being too specific here?
Doesn’t matter. I have said my piece.
 

stehno

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This subject about Roy’s revelation was brought up some months ago. So really there’s nothing new here.

And though the concept has the appearance that Roy is performing some due diligence, it also seems a bit silly at the same time. Do speakers sound different based on amplification? Yes. But speakers also sound different based on cabling, outlets, fuses, plugs, connectors, lifters, racks, as well as other components, etc. IOW, if Gregory’s revelation has merit, then why would he limit his repositioning of speakers only to amplifier changes?

But here’s where I think Gregory’s hypothesis doesn’t hold water. Though speakers will reflect everything up the chain, they simply cannot perform at their optimal unless there exists a superior interface or a superior acoustic coupling with the room itself. IOW, a speaker’s input signal may be electrical but its output is acoustical and therefore, its greatest dependency is its acoustic interface with the room.

And though Gregory may think he’s been enlightened to a new revelation with his ingenuity, I suspect the only real revelation is that his speakers’ prior placement/positioning were not as superior as he initially suspected.

That said, my limited experience leads me to think there exists one single absolute superior placement position for a speaker within a given room for that speaker to perform at its absolute optimal - think pitcher’s mound at the ball park. While there also exists an infinitesimally less superior speaker placement positions, think infield, outfield, ball park, parking lot, etc such that a speaker performs at less than its absolute optimal for that room.

Proof of this is that there exists a very real type of acoustic noise floor threshold established by the quality of this interface between speaker and room. When the interface quality is improved, we hear more bass notes and the bass notes we’re already used to hearing become tighter, deeper, quicker, more well-defined, etc. Not to mention that the more superior this acoustic interface, the more balanced, rich, warm, and flat out more musical the entire playback presentation. And vice versa when the speaker / room interface quality is worsened. This is all regardless of electronics up the chain because this speaker/room interface is acoustical in nature, not electronic.

Hence, I suspect when Gregory moves a speaker after an amplifier upgrade, and if the movement causes genuine improvements, then he most likely is simply placing the speakers a bit closer to the optimal pitcher’s mound position.

And though the new amplifier might improve bass and other sonic characteristics, if Gregory moving the speakers because of the new amp causing a genuine improvement, I would also suspect that if the old amplifier was re-installed, the sound would still benefit from the latest speaker movement.

Just as Lavigne mentioned, for many of us, locating a genuinely superior speaker placement position can take weeks, months, even years. Besides, how could one ever truly know that they’ve actually found THE optimal speaker placement position anyway?

Should we always be seeking our speaker’s optimal position within its room for optimal levels of musicality? Absolutely, as that’s what this hobby is all about. But given Gregory’s hypothesis and in light of the above, I have my doubts that Gregory possessing a superior knowledge of speaker placement and/or its import and since accuracy and stability would seem crucial to any product review, I would think the time to reposition speakers is not during a product review.

In summation, I’m inclined to think besides the possibility of creating yet one more preconceived narrative, Gregory is doing little more than potentially compromising the integrity of his reviews when he acts on this concept during an amplifier evaluation. Which if true has the potential to mislead readers into thinking the amplifier under review is potentially something other than his review might claim.

Again, because changing cables, outlets, racks, other components, etc, will all cause not-too-dissimilar sonic changes at the speaker, I’d venture that if Gregory takes his hypothesis seriously, he should be entirely consistent by moving his speakers every time he ever made any change to his system. Simply because speakers are incapable of discriminating between which objects are causing them to sound better. Whether it’s an amplifier or anything else.

A bright shining lie? Quite possibly.
 

Gregm

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Mar 14, 2019
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I think that the quintessence of this article is in its catchy title "...Bright Shining Lie... Inconvenient Truth..." etc.
The remainder is... duh
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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This subject about Roy’s revelation was brought up some months ago. So really there’s nothing new here.

And though the concept has the appearance that Roy is performing some due diligence, it also seems a bit silly at the same time. Do speakers sound different based on amplification? Yes. But speakers also sound different based on cabling, outlets, fuses, plugs, connectors, lifters, racks, as well as other components, etc. IOW, if Gregory’s revelation has merit, then why would he limit his repositioning of speakers only to amplifier changes?

But here’s where I think Gregory’s hypothesis doesn’t hold water. Though speakers will reflect everything up the chain, they simply cannot perform at their optimal unless there exists a superior interface or a superior acoustic coupling with the room itself. IOW, a speaker’s input signal may be electrical but its output is acoustical and therefore, its greatest dependency is its acoustic interface with the room.

And though Gregory may think he’s been enlightened to a new revelation with his ingenuity, I suspect the only real revelation is that his speakers’ prior placement/positioning were not as superior as he initially suspected.

That said, my limited experience leads me to think there exists one single absolute superior placement position for a speaker within a given room for that speaker to perform at its absolute optimal - think pitcher’s mound at the ball park. While there also exists an infinitesimally less superior speaker placement positions, think infield, outfield, ball park, parking lot, etc such that a speaker performs at less than its absolute optimal for that room.

Proof of this is that there exists a very real type of acoustic noise floor threshold established by the quality of this interface between speaker and room. When the interface quality is improved, we hear more bass notes and the bass notes we’re already used to hearing become tighter, deeper, quicker, more well-defined, etc. Not to mention that the more superior this acoustic interface, the more balanced, rich, warm, and flat out more musical the entire playback presentation. And vice versa when the speaker / room interface quality is worsened. This is all regardless of electronics up the chain because this speaker/room interface is acoustical in nature, not electronic.

Hence, I suspect when Gregory moves a speaker after an amplifier upgrade, and if the movement causes genuine improvements, then he most likely is simply placing the speakers a bit closer to the optimal pitcher’s mound position.

And though the new amplifier might improve bass and other sonic characteristics, if Gregory moving the speakers because of the new amp causing a genuine improvement, I would also suspect that if the old amplifier was re-installed, the sound would still benefit from the latest speaker movement.

Just as Lavigne mentioned, for many of us, locating a genuinely superior speaker placement position can take weeks, months, even years. Besides, how could one ever truly know that they’ve actually found THE optimal speaker placement position anyway?

Should we always be seeking our speaker’s optimal position within its room for optimal levels of musicality? Absolutely, as that’s what this hobby is all about. But given Gregory’s hypothesis and in light of the above, I have my doubts that Gregory possessing a superior knowledge of speaker placement and/or its import and since accuracy and stability would seem crucial to any product review, I would think the time to reposition speakers is not during a product review.

In summation, I’m inclined to think besides the possibility of creating yet one more preconceived narrative, Gregory is doing little more than potentially compromising the integrity of his reviews when he acts on this concept during an amplifier evaluation. Which if true has the potential to mislead readers into thinking the amplifier under review is potentially something other than his review might claim.

Again, because changing cables, outlets, racks, other components, etc, will all cause not-too-dissimilar sonic changes at the speaker, I’d venture that if Gregory takes his hypothesis seriously, he should be entirely consistent by moving his speakers every time he ever made any change to his system. Simply because speakers are incapable of discriminating between which objects are causing them to sound better. Whether it’s an amplifier or anything else.

A bright shining lie? Quite possibly.
Very interesting read...thanks for taking the time.
 
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wil

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I may have this wrong, but I got the impression Gregory was talking about relatively minute adjustments to the already established acoustically coupled "pitcher's mound" speaker location. Still pretty darned inconvenient.

I'd be interested to hear what a couple of set-up warriors like Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle would have to say on this subject.
 
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sbnx

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Stirling Trayle is going to tell you exactly what Roy said in the article is true and then some.

There were some comments about this being limited to amplifiers. That is not true. In fact Roy mentions the reference to the Nordost speaker cable shootout and how the Odin2 lost to the Valhalla 2 until they moved the speaker some.

Someone mentioned room sensitivity. I think I must have the most sensitive room on the planet. it is very frustrating sometimes. For example, changing the height of one of my speakers by 1/2 a millimeter will kill the bass. I think this is partially because the room is well treated (likely over treated).
 

adrianywu

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Different amplifiers interact with speakers in different ways. That is quite obvious. Moving the speakers is only one of the ways one can use to compensate for the changes. One of the greatest challenges I have found is on choosing the right speakers for the room, since there is no hard and fast rule, and most buyers do not have the luxury to try many different speakers before committing. One can make educated guesses based on measurements such as off axis response, impedance curve etc., but ultimately, it is trial and error. It is impossible for speaker designers to cater for all the different situations in terms of amplifier characteristics and room acoustics, and they can either aim to optimise for one narrow set of situations (used with SET amps, for example), or try to make something that works reasonably well under a large set of circumstances. I would find the latter case unsatisfactory. When I started building my current system, I started with the room. Given the room's dimensions, I got a friend who is an acoustician to design the acoustic treatment. I drew up a set of priorities I find important and then chose my equipment based on that. Instead of looking for the right pair of speakers, I started from scratch and built a pair of speakers. Changing drivers, for example is cheaper than changing speakers, and I started with second hand units, which I could resell without losing much value. Using an active crossover also makes life a lot easier. I ended up using field coil drivers, with the added flexibility of tuning the driver parameters on the fly. With this flexibility, choosing the right amplification becomes much simpler. High sensitivity horn drivers and the lack of passive crossover means pretty much any amplifier can be made to work. Having lived with many different types of speakers, from electrostatics to horns, this is my ultimate approach.
 
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sbnx

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Wow - aren't you scared to breath? :)

I know you guys think that was hyperbole but it is not. I am not afraid to breathe but i also don't go near my speakers without intent and I don't let others near them. Not because I am afraid of damage but rather it takes very little to damage the sound and then I would have to spend a bunch of time putting it back.
 
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barryr1

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I find it curious how a seemingly friendly group of people with an obtuse hobby come together to learn more about their hobby and possibly enhance their enjoyment of it, band together like wolves to attack an idea that they cant understand or dont embrace Possibly the world is flat To those who have all of the answers, please remember to tip your installers when they come to your house to adjust your system to your liking. No reason to read ideas if everything is known.
 

andromedaaudio

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My expirience is that if you have speakers that you need to move around endlessly to find " a kind off acceptable " balance / bass extension , usually have a problem in the bass already , moving them around will change the balance off course but only to a certain extent.
Well designed / balanced speakers should sound already pretty good from the get go , if set up by an experienced audiophile ,(off course free from the back / side wall).
Ps The Amplification should be able to properly drive the speakers / have good control off course , if thats not the case you open another can of worms .
I m just assuming amplification / power is sufficient


If it takes hours and hours/ days to make the speaker sound kind of acceptable , imo the best placement of the speaker is in a truck and return to sender / dealer .

Also , big " Full range" speakers marketed as such , which do need a sub in the end , i would nt touch.

Ps I m not saying anything bad about roy gregory / sterling as i found the Rockports were very well set up in munich
 
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Carlos269

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I find it curious how a seemingly friendly group of people with an obtuse hobby come together to learn more about their hobby and possibly enhance their enjoyment of it, band together like wolves to attack an idea that they cant understand or dont embrace Possibly the world is flat To those who have all of the answers, please remember to tip your installers when they come to your house to adjust your system to your liking. No reason to read ideas if everything is known.
So are we to assume that you are fine with the idea of using speaker repositioning to compensate for components upstream? Every time a zealot audiophile tries a different power-cord or fuse, speakers need to be moved to ”optimize” the sound? The earth may not be flat, and thinking outside the box is a good creative process, but come on, we need to stop the foolishness somewhere!

For those that want to constrain it to amplifiers, please explain the logic there? If a device makes an aural difference (either for the better or for worse) then by definition, these components and devices are also altering the “spectral balance”. No matter how you slice it, the idea and practice, of speaker repositioning to compensate for ”spectral balance”, are dumb and for a professional reviewer to make this part of their equipment assessments and evaluations it really speaks loudly of their lack of understanding of electro-acoustics and the scientific process. Acousticians are practical people that base their work more on acquired knowledge and practical experience as opposed to theory, physics and engineering so they typically do not know in-depth the forces at work, I will stop there in an effort to be more polite. If you have to pay someone to come set-up and “optimize” your system….then perhaps you are in the wrong hobby and it’s time to find something else that you understand better.
 
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Al M.

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My expirience is that if you have speakers that you need to move around endlessly to find " a kind off acceptable " balance / bass extension , usually have a problem in the bass already , moving them around will change the balance off course but only to a certain extent.
Well designed / balanced speakers should sound already pretty good from the get go , if set up by an experienced audiophile ,(off course free from the back / side wall).
Ps The Amplification should be able to properly drive the speakers / have good control off course , if thats not the case you open another can of worms .
I m just assuming amplification / power is sufficient


If it takes hours and hours/ days to make the speaker sound kind off acceptable , imo the best placement of the speaker is in a truck and return to sender / dealer .

That very much depends on how difficult the room is. Yours is another kind of cheap generalization.

Also , big " Full range" speakers marketed as such , which do need a sub in the end , i would nt touch.

Any so called "full range" speaker is most likely not full range, except those that already come with their own separate bass towers, like the ones Mike Lavigne has, for example.

The nominal "going down to 20 Hz" is mostly laughable. Just play a deep bass electronica track like "You Should See Me with a Crown" by Billie Eilish on "full range" speakers and compare with and without high-powered subwoofers *). I bet on most, probably including yours, the difference would range from pronounced to shocking, more likely than not the latter.

Almost every speaker system needs subwoofers to really be full range.

______________

*) they should be dialed in such that they do *not* leave a prominent signature on most music
 
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andromedaaudio

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To keep it at a more well known level as my speakers are not well known .

I heard good bass reproduced in munich by a single cone speaker and that was the Kharma exquisite MIDI Grand and the Rockport Lyra , Kroma audio was also pretty good
To me thats a Full range coherent sound and the last thing i need when listening to music is some Sub mumbling in the back ground .

Some were integrated systems like FM acoustics which were good but they are sold as systems.

All in the cone category and to my ears
 
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LL21

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To keep it at a more well known level as my speakers are not well known .

I heard good bass produced in munich by a single cone speaker and that was the Kharma exquisite MIDI Grand and the Rockport Lyra Kroma audio was also pretty good
To me thats a Full range coherent sound and the last thing i need when listening to music is some sub mumbling in the back ground .

Some were integrated systems like the FM acoustics which were good but they are sold as systems
Interesting...Josh and Andy Payor at Rockport were quite supportive of the idea of Rockport custom-designed standalone dual subs for the Lyras when I spoke with them. I have to say, I am a big fan of well dialed-in subs myself...completely cut off anywhere above 38hz-40hz makes a really big difference in the sense of venue and space whether in orchestral or jazz club recordings.
 

Al M.

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To keep it at a more well known level as my speakers are not well known .

I heard good bass reproduced in munich by a single cone speaker and that was the Kharma exquisite MIDI Grand and the Rockport Lyra , Kroma audio was also pretty good
To me thats a Full range coherent sound and the last thing i need when listening to music is some sub mumbling in the back ground .

Some were integrated systems like FM acoustics which were good but they are sold as systems.

All in the cone category and to my ears

"Good bass" and truly full range are two very different things.
 
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