More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

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bonzo75

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It takes a low IQ to think that new music is music developed recently, not music new to you. I keep discovering new music, some of it is from 1600s, for me old recordings and performances discovered recently were new music, but then my Facebook IQ test showed 190.

for those who listen to “new music” written and recorded after 2000 best to leave your IQ and music Q fluttering in the wind. Will stink like a lingerer though.

aggressively yours,
Bonzo
 

PeterA

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LOL. Tim is one of the least aggressive let's make peace guys you wil ever meet.

Especially compared to opinionated diks like myself, Microstrip, Bonzo, mini ddk(Peter) , DDK and alike ;)

Shane, I did meet Tim while visiting David, and you are correct.

I appreciate your opinion, but I am actually slightly taller than David and much less charming.
 
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wil

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It takes a low IQ to think that new music is music developed recently, not music new to you. I keep discovering new music, some of it is from 1600s, for me old recordings and performances discovered recently were new music, but then my Facebook IQ test showed 190.

for those who listen to “new music” written and recorded after 2000 best to leave your IQ and music Q fluttering in the wind. Will stink like a lingerer though.

aggressively yours,
Bonzo
I agree there’s great new music to be discovered from any century — including the 21st.
 

Gunnar

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I'm active in dozens of forums about dozens of different topics and WBF is by VEEEEERYYY FAAAAAR the friendliest and least hostile forum I know.
I agree to 100%
 
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Blackmorec

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My comment said gear in general I wasn't focusing on tts but you can still buy a nicely sorted out Garrard 401 $600-$700, stick in a nice plinth and put it up against some of the popular ones in 5-6 figure range and see for yourself. For obvious reasons we won't get into brands and models.

david
Hi David,
Yes, in its day the Garrard 401 was a very good turntable. I could have bought one during its production period but purchased an alternative, whose sound I preferred. In the meantime I’ve owned several excellent turntables with substantially better performance than the Garrard, but which admittedly also cost substantially more. But that’s not quite the point.

The point is, the results I am now getting from streaming are way, way better than those I obtained from the turntables I have owned.

Interestingly, when I started building my current streaming system, I found that I had a free top shelf on my rack and an excellent phono amp available, so I spent an amusing few weeks buying a turntable, arm, cartridge, arm cable and all the set-up tools. As I’d sold all my records, I purchased ca 170 mainly EMIs and Deccas of my favorite classical pieces, conducted by some of the best conductors of the time. All the records were classified Mint or Near Mint. I also bought ca 25 new 180g re-issues of my favorite 60s and 70s popular music including stuff like Led Zep, Pink Floyd, the Nice, Pentangle, Fairport Convention etc.

I spent a very relaxing day setting up the turntable, getting the whole thing nicely level and balanced, getting VTA, Azimuth, and all the other alignments correct. The phonoamp allowed me to accurately set up all the matching electrical parameters for the cartridge, so by the time I was finished, I was prepared for quite a sonic treat. And it didn’t disappoint. But what it also did was instantly bring back memories of previous iterations of vinyl. The system sounded in a word ‘old’. To begin with there was the noise….first of contamination but also of a small diamond traversing a convoluted groove cut in a plastic medium. As I sat and listened, the music worked its usual magic, with tremendous involvement. The presentation of the music took me back to earlier times, in the same way the pungent smell of a steam train instantly regresses me to the feelings and emotions of childhood days.
But the more I listened, the more I wondered what was the point (for me). I was going to a lot of fuss and bother…..into and out of sleeves, record clamp, cleaning stylus, cleaning record, cuing etc. only to be rewarded with a sound that was noisier, less enveloping, less dynamic, less extended at the frequency extremes, less vivid, less spatial. Now this isn‘t a condemnation of vinyl. The sound was lovely, but it was nothing like as good as I can get from excellent, highly optimized streaming. There’s no doubt that a better TT, better arm, cartridge and phone amp would close and even obliterate the gap, but there’s also no doubt that spending the same money on improving streaming would maintain the difference.
At the time this happened I would guess that my vinyl set-up was about twice the price of my streaming front end. In the meantime I traded the new TT, arm etc. and spent all that money plus more on streaming and the results I’m now getting transcend anything I’ve ever heard from a vinyl set-up. Again that‘s not to say that vinyl doesn‘t have the beating of streaming, but I’m guessing I‘d need to spend an awful lot to better the SQ my streaming set-up is currently delivering In order to achieve a similar level of enjoyment.
So in conclusion, in my set-up and in my experience, streaming truly has all the musical delivery attributes to quality unreservedly as ‘high-end’ audio and is in no way inferior to alternative audio media, when evaluated in terms of the overall pleasure delivered.
 
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Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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Hi David,
Yes, in its day the Garrard 401 was a very good turntable. I could have bought one during its production period but purchased an alternative, whose sound I preferred. In the meantime I’ve owned several excellent turntables with substantially better performance than the Garrard, but which admittedly also cost substantially more. But that’s not quite the point.

The point is, the results I am now getting from streaming are way, way better than those I obtained from the turntables I have owned.

Interestingly, when I started building my current streaming system, I found that I had a free top shelf on my rack and an excellent phono amp available, so I spent an amusing few weeks buying a turntable, arm, cartridge, arm cable and all the set-up tools. As I’d sold all my records, I purchased ca 170 mainly EMIs and Deccas of my favorite classical pieces, conducted by some of the best conductors of the time. All the records were classified Mint or Near Mint. I also bought ca 25 new 180g re-issues of my favorite 60s and 70s popular music including stuff like Led Zep, Pink Floyd, the Nice, Pentangle, Fairport Convention etc.

I spent a very relaxing day setting up the turntable, getting the whole thing nicely level and balanced, getting VTA, Azimuth, and all the other alignments correct. The phonoamp allowed me to accurately set up all the matching electrical parameters for the cartridge, so by the time I was finished, I was prepared for quite a sonic treat. And it didn’t disappoint. But what it also did was instantly bring back memories of previous iterations of vinyl. The system sounded in a word ‘old’. To begin with there was the noise….first of contamination but also of a small diamond traversing a convoluted groove cut in a plastic medium. As I sat and listened, the music worked its usual magic, with tremendous involvement. The presentation of the music took me back to earlier times, in the same way the pungent smell of a steam train instantly regresses me to the feelings and emotions of childhood days.
But the more I listened, the more I wondered what was the point (for me). I was going to a lot of fuss and bother…..into and out of sleeves, record clamp, cleaning stylus, cleaning record, cuing etc. only to be rewarded with a sound that was noisier, less enveloping, less dynamic, less extended at the frequency extremes, less vivid, less spatial. Now this isn‘t a condemnation of vinyl. The sound was lovely, but it was nothing like as good as I can get from excellent, highly optimized streaming. There’s no doubt that a better TT, better arm, cartridge and phone amp would close and even obliterate the gap, but there’s also no doubt that spending the same money on improving streaming would maintain the difference.
At the time this happened I would guess that my vinyl set-up was about twice the price of my streaming front end. In the meantime I traded the new TT, arm etc. and spent all that money plus more on streaming and the results I’m now getting transcend anything I’ve ever heard from a vinyl set-up. Again that‘s not to say that vinyl doesn‘t have the beating of streaming, but I’m guessing I‘d need to spend an awful lot to better the SQ my streaming set-up is currently delivering In order to achieve a similar level of enjoyment.
So in conclusion, in my set-up and in my experience, streaming truly has all the musical delivery attributes to quality unreservedly as ‘high-end’ audio and is in no way inferior to alternative audio media.
I don't think you set your vinyl up well or had something off in the chain. My digital is pretty good. Asus router, Linear Solution switch. Independent modem. All 3 on individual LPS. All 3 LPS plugged into a Torus transformer. AQ Cinnamon cable or Blue Jeans ethernet cable from the switch to server. That all made my streaming what I would call High End. Its really good.

FWIW, all my equipment is feed by a large wall mount Torus Isolation transformer

But, my vinyl has more textural detail and complexity. Its more natural and real. Instrument are more correct and present with a tangible life. Micro dynamics are better as well as bass impact and depth. I wash all my records. The new heavy vinyl are very very quiet. The old vinyl can have some surface noise. I might hear it between tracks. I do have records I like that have surface noise I hear in the music.

Its my experience that sources are as difficult to set up as landing speakers in a room. And not all components are made equal. I put my brand new Lino Channel D3.3 phono in last night. I put on a early 90s vinyl Mozart. Most likely a DDA pressing. I have never heard the level of musicality in my system I heard from that record. My vinyl finally touched a place I hear when I visit people with too tier well tuned gear. My vinyl is way beyond my digital now..

I still love my digital. But if I sit and back to back digital tracks to vinyl tracks, it is quickly apparent what the vinyl is doing and why its better. The only thing the digital consistently does better is very very low noise between tracks. And admitted ease of use and a broad selection of music. But if I want to sit and focus for 20 minutes while I sip a cocktail at the end of the day, I am very aware the vinyl, or tape, perform at a higher level than my digital.
 
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ddk

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Hi David,
Yes, in its day the Garrard 401 was a very good turntable. I could have bought one during its production period but purchased an alternative, whose sound I preferred. In the meantime I’ve owned several excellent turntables with substantially better performance than the Garrard, but which admittedly also cost substantially more. But that’s not quite the point.

The point is, the results I am now getting from streaming are way, way better than those I obtained from the turntables I have owned.

Interestingly, when I started building my current streaming system, I found that I had a free top shelf on my rack and an excellent phono amp available, so I spent an amusing few weeks buying a turntable, arm, cartridge, arm cable and all the set-up tools. As I’d sold all my records, I purchased ca 170 mainly EMIs and Deccas of my favorite classical pieces, conducted by some of the best conductors of the time. All the records were classified Mint or Near Mint. I also bought ca 25 new 180g re-issues of my favorite 60s and 70s popular music including stuff like Led Zep, Pink Floyd, the Nice, Pentangle, Fairport Convention etc.

I spent a very relaxing day setting up the turntable, getting the whole thing nicely level and balanced, getting VTA, Azimuth, and all the other alignments correct. The phonoamp allowed me to accurately set up all the matching electrical parameters for the cartridge, so by the time I was finished, I was prepared for quite a sonic treat. And it didn’t disappoint. But what it also did was instantly bring back memories of previous iterations of vinyl. The system sounded in a word ‘old’. To begin with there was the noise….first of contamination but also of a small diamond traversing a convoluted groove cut in a plastic medium. As I sat and listened, the music worked its usual magic, with tremendous involvement. The presentation of the music took me back to earlier times, in the same way the pungent smell of a steam train instantly regresses me to the feelings and emotions of childhood days.
But the more I listened, the more I wondered what was the point (for me). I was going to a lot of fuss and bother…..into and out of sleeves, record clamp, cleaning stylus, cleaning record, cuing etc. only to be rewarded with a sound that was noisier, less enveloping, less dynamic, less extended at the frequency extremes, less vivid, less spatial. Now this isn‘t a condemnation of vinyl. The sound was lovely, but it was nothing like as good as I can get from excellent, highly optimized streaming. There’s no doubt that a better TT, better arm, cartridge and phone amp would close and even obliterate the gap, but there’s also no doubt that spending the same money on improving streaming would maintain the difference.
At the time this happened I would guess that my vinyl set-up was about twice the price of my streaming front end. In the meantime I traded the new TT, arm etc. and spent all that money plus more on streaming and the results I’m now getting transcend anything I’ve ever heard from a vinyl set-up. Again that‘s not to say that vinyl doesn‘t have the beating of streaming, but I’m guessing I‘d need to spend an awful lot to better the SQ my streaming set-up is currently delivering In order to achieve a similar level of enjoyment.
So in conclusion, in my set-up and in my experience, streaming truly has all the musical delivery attributes to quality unreservedly as ‘high-end’ audio and is in no way inferior to alternative audio media, when evaluated in terms of the overall pleasure delivered.
Hi Blackmore,
I started this thread to discuss streaming and it's characteristics hoping to also hear from people who's primary isn't streaming because we don't participate in dedicated streaming threads as well as those who only stream, definitely not to compare formats or to see who's is bigger. What I'm interested in is what music majority of primary streamers listen to and some insight into their systems and setup. There's no hidden agenda nor am I interested in converting anyone. I picked this video thinking that the questions came from unknowns and Paul being a "digital guy" selling primarily to this market hoping people won't read into it something that's not there.

Thank you for participating,

david
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Hi Blackmore,
I started this thread to discuss streaming and it's characteristics hoping to also hear from people who's primary isn't streaming because we don't participate in dedicated streaming threads as well as those who only stream, definitely not to compare formats or to see who's is bigger. What I'm interested in is what music majority of primary streamers listen to and some insight into their systems and setup. There's no hidden agenda nor am I interested in converting anyone. I picked this video thinking that the questions came from unknowns and Paul being a "digital guy" selling primarily to this market hoping people won't read into it something that's not there.

Thank you for participating,

david
the backdrop of this thread, is this post.

you act as if we now are all Kum By Ya.....and we are not back on our heels about your bluster.

your agenda is clear. heck, read the thread title.
 
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PYP

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The video is a good way to kick off this discussion, but isn't very informative (or informed) otherwise. It seems to subscribe to the an audiophile simplification that certain systems/topologies are "natural" and other are not. Nothing against vinyl, but what is inherently natural about the analog process of capturing live sound and its related playback method? (and is stereo natural?) As @Atmasphere has said elsewhere, (paraphrasing) pick your distortion spectra.

I'm not sure what high end is anymore, but while the typical audiophile descriptions are OK for describing sound I gauge success in terms of musical engagement. Purpose-built streamers are designed to mitigate the noise gremlins that travel along with digital data. The threads for Antipodes, Grimm and Taiko (among others) indicate musical enjoyment is readily available from streamers if the funds are. And those designers continue to innovate and improve their technology. So, a related interesting question might be where we are on the curve:

1673544004646.png
 

ddk

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the backdrop of this thread, is this post.

you act as if we now are all Kum By Ya.....and we are not back on our heels about your bluster.

your agenda is clear.
Once again you prove your hypocrisy Mike, it's exactly for people like you that I used this video instead of asking the questions directly! You complain about darkness in the forum but you're always jumping into threads making things personal. That's who you are I'm not a pretender like you nowhere in this thread or anywhere on the forum did I say I'm a fan, doesn't mean I don't have questions and curiosity. This is another thread that you can't help but ruin with personal shit, satisfied? Now go back and play with your little dongle! Remember that whatever our disagreements you're the one who removed the veil of civility between us!

david
 

Mike Lavigne

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Once again you prove your hypocrisy Mike, it's exactly for people like you that I used this video instead of asking the questions directly! You complain about darkness in the forum but you're always jumping into threads making things personal. That's who you are I'm not a pretender like you nowhere in this thread or anywhere on the forum did I say I'm a fan, doesn't mean I don't have questions and curiosity. This is another thread that you can't help but ruin with personal shit, satisfied? Now go back and play with your little dongle! Remember that whatever our disagreements you're the one who removed the veil of civility between us!

david
walk back your comment David. or not. you want dialog? open your mind.
 
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microstrip

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Bob Dylan has penned a new song sung by Joan Baez,


Yes, and how many times must we read the same thing
And how many ears must an audiophile have
To hear his system makes people cry?
And how many posts will it take till micro knows
And how many times will you turn your head and pretend that you cannot see

the answer is fluttering in the wind

A pity you miserably defiled the lyrics of a great song to spread your venin in a personnel attack. But we have got used to it.
 

ddk

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walk back your comment David. or not. you want dialog? open your mind.
Not with you Mike, I would have reached out directly if I valued your opinion or even thought you have the slightest clue with what you're doing or hearing! Walk yourself back!

david
 

dminches

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Once again you prove your hypocrisy Mike, it's exactly for people like you that I used this video instead of asking the questions directly! You complain about darkness in the forum but you're always jumping into threads making things personal. That's who you are I'm not a pretender like you nowhere in this thread or anywhere on the forum did I say I'm a fan, doesn't mean I don't have questions and curiosity. This is another thread that you can't help but ruin with personal shit, satisfied? Now go back and play with your little dongle! Remember that whatever our disagreements you're the one who removed the veil of civility between us!

david

In Mike’s defense you did say it sucks. Is there anything that can said to change your view?

In my set up I cannot distinguish streaming from local files so if you think the playback of local files can sound good and be enjoyable then so can streaming with the right setup. I don’t know if you are distinguishing streaming and local playback. If you are then why can’t streaming sound great if local playback can?

Curious in how you view this.
 

ddk

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In Mike’s defense you did say it sucks. Is there anything that can said to change your view?
Let's be clear David his post wasn't innocent and we both know it, his personal comments are quite clear about his real intent. I've never hidden my feelings about the medium my personal opinion has no relevance to this thread and I've kept it out so it doesn't become an issue.
In my set up I cannot distinguish streaming from local files so if you think the playback of local files can sound good and be enjoyable then so can streaming with the right setup. I don’t know if you are distinguishing streaming and local playback. If you are then why can’t streaming sound great if local playback can?

Curious in how you view this.
YouTube, Internet Radio, Spotify, iTunes, Pandora, etc. including HD tracks listening online or from a local drive but not ripped CDs, ripped needle drops or personal recordings.

david
 

dminches

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YouTube, Internet Radio, Spotify, iTunes, Pandora, etc. including HD tracks listening online or from a local drive but not ripped CDs, ripped needle drops or personal recordings.

david

I don’t think any of those services are lossless (I could be wrong). I only stream from Qobuz and it sounds the same as my local files.
 

ddk

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I don’t think any of those services are lossless (I could be wrong). I only stream from Qobuz and it sounds the same as my local files.
Really more interested in what you stream and if it's your primary over technology and sound quality. I listen differently and to entirely different music when streaming from listening with some other medium that's why I'm curious if the medium dictates or influences what we listen to.

david
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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Really more interested in what you stream and if it's your primary over technology and sound quality. I listen differently and to entirely different music when streaming from listening with some other medium.

david

I don’t stream a lot and use it 50/50 to audition and listen to something I don’t know or own. If I REALLY like it I will probably buy the LP especially if I think I will listen to it multiple times.

If I look at my Qobuz favorites it is mostly high resolution jazz, blues and rock.

Tape 25%/LP 40%/Local files 25%/Stream 10%
 
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Gregadd

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I don’t think any of those services are lossless (I could be wrong). I only stream from Qobuz and it sounds the same as my local files.
I am pretty sure HD tracks is primarily lossless or higher. You tube is supposedly mp3. I don't know about the others. Lack of quality is not inherent in the medium it is a matter of choice.
 
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