Alexx V arrive in NJ

[MadFloyd]

Be careful for what you wish for!
Seriously Ian, this could be nothing more than music preference. If your preference is chamber, choral, period music, etc, you may find the CH ideal. If orchestral power music and bottom up, bass rich music is your preferred listening content for the most part, there might be more enjoyable choices. Nothing captures this better than the always popular "YMMV" moniker.

Well I appreciate that, I'm just trying to understand what the deficiency was. Loose bass? Not enough bass? Not enough slam? Lack of articulate bass? Was it a tonal balance thing where the bass was low in volume compared to the rest of the frequency spectrum or the opposite because the bass was boomy?

I have no doubt that what I hear is different from you with different speakers etc and I don't so much care about the 'why' as I do the 'what'? What was wrong? Poor bass, sure - but why KIND of poor bass? What does this form of poor bass sound like?

 

[microstrip]

Be careful for what you wish for!
Seriously Ian, this could be nothing more than music preference. If your preference is chamber, choral, period music, etc, you may find the CH ideal. If orchestral power music and bottom up, bass rich music is your preferred listening content for the most part, there might be more enjoyable choices. Nothing captures this better than the always popular "YMMV" moniker.

And probably also dependent on room gain characteristics. REW waterfalls of the AlexxV driven by the two amplifiers would probably have clearly shown why such difference.

 

[marty]

Well I appreciate that, I'm just trying to understand what the deficiency was. Loose bass? Not enough bass? Not enough slam? Lack of articulate bass? Was it a tonal balance thing where the bass was low in volume compared to the rest of the frequency spectrum or the opposite because the bass was boomy?

I have no doubt that what I hear is different from you with different speakers etc and I don't so much care about the 'why' as I do the 'what'? What was wrong? Poor bass, sure - but why KIND of poor bass? What does this form of poor bass sound like?

Sluggish and poorly defined bass would be aa fair characterization. It was not a quantitative but a qualitative deficiency. The net result was bass that did not sound like the real thing. One need not listen to anything but the left hand of the piano recording to hear this deficiency. When a piano does not sound like a piano, that's a deal breaker for me. Having a Steinway in your room may not be the best way to assess this, but it sure doesn't hurt. The bass on the JC1+ delivers the piano left hand in a way that is simply truer as I hear it, and thus is more pleasing to me. To be fair, the M10 delivers piano right hand reproduction that is a bit "truer" from a timbral perspective. Pick your poison. One I can live with. The other, I can't.

 

[LL21]

I am with you Marty...I had a very similar experience with Stillpoints adding so much clarity of notes and articulated 'technique' of Glenn Gould...but the lower mids (middle C) became thin and hollow, and it drove me absolutely bananas because it was a dealbreaker...but I was so focused on trying to keep the 'understanding of technique' that the Stillpoints gave through its clarity.

In the end, adding HRS Nimbus Couplers on top of the Stillpoints solved it brilliantly, so now every Stillpoint in the system is topped by an HRS Nimbus Coupler which then sits directly underneath the chassis.

Coming back to you...that middle and lower register sounding 'hollowed out' is a dealbreaker for me.

FWIW, if you ever heard Gryphon amps or Robert Koda, do let me know what you think in comparison with your JC1+ amps. In my experience, if there is one thing particularly satisfying, it is their ability to create the full body piano experience. And Gryphon has a fearsome reputation for foundational bass too.

 

[MadFloyd]

Sluggish and poorly defined bass would be aa fair characterization. It was not a quantitative but a qualitative deficiency. The net result was bass that did not sound like the real thing. One need not listen to anything but the left hand of the piano recording to hear this deficiency. When a piano does not sound like a piano, that's a deal breaker for me. Having a Steinway in your room may not be the best way to assess this, but it sure doesn't hurt. The bass on the JC1+ delivers the piano left hand in a way that is simply truer as I hear it, and thus is more pleasing to me. To be fair, the M10 delivers piano right hand reproduction that is a bit "truer" from a timbral perspective. Pick your poison. One I can live with. The other, I can't.

Gotcha. I understand now. If I couldn’t reproduce the lower notes of a piano realistically it would drive me nuts too.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am with you Marty...I had a very similar experience with Stillpoints adding so much clarity of notes and articulated 'technique' of Glenn Gould...but the lower mids (middle C) became thin and hollow, and it drove me absolutely bananas because it was a dealbreaker...but I was so focused on trying to keep the 'understanding of technique' that the Stillpoints gave through its clarity.

In the end, adding HRS Nimbus Couplers on top of the Stillpoints solved it brilliantly, so now every Stillpoint in the system is topped by an HRS Nimbus Coupler which then sits directly underneath the chassis.

Coming back to you...that middle and lower register sounding 'hollowed out' is a dealbreaker for me.

FWIW, if you ever heard Gryphon amps or Robert Koda, do let me know what you think in comparison with your JC1+ amps. In my experience, if there is one thing particularly satisfying, it is their ability to create the full body piano experience. And Gryphon has a fearsome reputation for foundational bass too.

similar experience with my floating my speaker cables; i had to ground them somewhat to find the balance. fully floated too threadbare, more dynamic snap, but the weight was diminished. got to have sufficient weight to resemble real.

the other thought is that not all music has equal bass weight; so an amp needs to be producing the weight and authority when the music is doing it, and not any overlay of bass presence. the speakers should 'hook up' with the music for the flow and pulse to be physical. action.

this past weekend i spent two days at a mini show listening to the Magico S5 mK2 and the Q Sub 15. mostly it was musical and balanced. but it dipped into non musical bass presence which was a reminder it was reproduced. overall enjoyed it very much, but it was less than fully sorted out, which was ok as it was a show.

 

[marty]

this past weekend i spent two days at a mini show

Why even bother? The best show is at your house!!

 

[Kingsrule]

So what are the new amps u are bring in?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Why even bother? The best show is at your house!!

thanks Marty. i feel very lucky to be able to enjoy my own system, like you. we have both made huge efforts.

but audio shows are their own version of fun. and i was supporting my local friend's show, and also was able to hang with Fremer for (parts of) 2 days and that was a pleasure too. the sound was involving, and the pressings were quite special. it was time well spent.

Audio-Ultra 'mini-show' near Seattle today--enjoyed it yesterday--good sounds, Fremer there too.

started around noon yesterday. today starts at 9am. our WBF member Ed DiVito runs Audio-Ultra (he was also with Rex, WBF member Kingrex, doing the electrical help for Michael Fremer at his home......Stereophile write-up this month.....Rex is not part of Audio Ultra). i got there about 4pm and...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Elliot G.]

Just one detail - did you ever had the opportunity of comparing the JC1 with the JC1+?

yes I have owned both. The Jc1+ is clearly a superior amp in everyway possible.

 

[Elliot G.]

Be careful for what you wish for!
Seriously Ian, this could be nothing more than music preference. If your preference is chamber, choral, period music, etc, you may find the CH ideal. If orchestral power music and bottom up, bass rich music is your preferred listening content for the most part, there might be more enjoyable choices. Nothing captures this better than the always popular "YM

Be careful for what you wish for!
Seriously Ian, this could be nothing more than music preference. If your preference is chamber, choral, period music, etc, you may find the CH ideal. If orchestral power music and bottom up, bass rich music is your preferred listening content for the most part, there might be more enjoyable choices. Nothing captures this better than the always popular "YMMV" moniker.

definitely not loosey goosey anything in that room Marty has a completely different system and room than your Ian. You have very different speakers etc. Universal truths in audio are few and infrequent. I have the M10's in my place and installing the boards to make them into two stereo amps. One for me and one to get sold.

 

[LL21]

similar experience with my floating my speaker cables; i had to ground them somewhat to find the balance. fully floated too threadbare, more dynamic snap, but the weight was diminished. got to have sufficient weight to resemble real.

the other thought is that not all music has equal bass weight; so an amp needs to be producing the weight and authority when the music is doing it, and not any overlay of bass presence. the speakers should 'hook up' with the music for the flow and pulse to be physical. action.

this past weekend i spent two days at a mini show listening to the Magico S5 mK2 and the Q Sub 15. mostly it was musical and balanced. but it dipped into non musical bass presence which was a reminder it was reproduced. overall enjoyed it very much, but it was less than fully sorted out, which was ok as it was a show.

Yes, you have said [at least] two things I have started to learn steadily over only just the last few years. I bold your statements above and address my own experiences with those below:

1. "an amp needs to be producing the weight and authority when the music is doing it, and not any overlay of bass presence"
More experience has continued to teach me (particularly now with Robert Koda amplification) that different albums sound 'more different' now than they ever did before. And it was certainly not like we had homogenized music before.

But we are re-learning some of our music now due to the way it is presented specifically in the bass...where certain albums have even deeper (not more) bass slam than before (relative to a Gryphon!)...but on a second album, the bass is more svelte than before where it used to be foundationally solid again. I certainly loved the way the Gryphon portrayed that 2nd album...but the Robert Koda's more (apparently) chameleon like performance has me slightly re-calibrating our music and what certain elements should sound like. Because I know that on certain albums, that slam is "all there and more"...so it is telling me something about our music and earlier generations of our system.

2. "non musical bass presence which was a reminder it was reproduced"
For me, great bass has always been a core pillar to how I like to hear sound...not necessarily the most accurate, but the most 'propulsive, satisfying'. However, as time has gone on, equipment, speakers and setup have advanced here to a point where I am [finally] able to listen for the tonal variations in deep bass, the subtle shades of micro-timing and syncopation in deep house music, etc, etc...where the timed bass wallop which was nice and super-clean/powerful used to be all I needed.

I was never prepared to sacrifice one bit of that 'excess' even if it meant more nuance...if it also meant less sheer, satisfying grunt. But this meant I knowingly became accustomed to a "musical bass presence" that was perhaps always there (no bad thing when the sub is dialed to start below 36-38hz)...but with great time, setup...that whole subterranean experience becoming more nuanced has been its own education and great experience re-learning music.

 

[KeithR]

Well I appreciate that, I'm just trying to understand what the deficiency was. Loose bass? Not enough bass? Not enough slam? Lack of articulate bass? Was it a tonal balance thing where the bass was low in volume compared to the rest of the frequency spectrum or the opposite because the bass was boomy?

I have no doubt that what I hear is different from you with different speakers etc and I don't so much care about the 'why' as I do the 'what'? What was wrong? Poor bass, sure - but why KIND of poor bass? What does this form of poor bass sound like?

you can't compare systems, Ian. apples and oranges courtesy of the speaker.

 

[marty]

you can't compare systems, Ian. apples and oranges courtesy of the speaker.

And the room. Especially the room, which has 4 Helmholtz resonators in 14 ft ceilings that afford excellent bass at loud volumes without significant room overload. It’s a useful feature for assessing bass performance of amps (and speakers).

 

[andromedaaudio]

I guess everybody has a different set of standards
It sounds like Marty puts the amps to the test music wise
Im certainly not an amp expert , but seeing the power supply on those M10 s you d expect ironfisted bass control among other things .


Mad floyd your JL 7s should be able to tell you all you want to know whether you have good bass control as compared to the CH M 1 s
Put some large orchestral work on ( or house music ) and turn up the volume a bit .

 

[bonzo75]

So is it fair to say that the poor bass was a lack of control and grip? As in loosey goosey bass, sans articulation?

I suddenly feel like I need to audition a pair of Parasound JC1+

That's a good positive attitude

 

[MadFloyd]

I guess everybody has a different set of standards
It sounds like Marty puts the amps to the test music wise
Im certainly not an amp expert , but seeing the power supply on those M10 s you d expect ironfisted bass control among other things .


Mad floyd your JL 7s should be able to tell you all you want to know whether you have good bass control as compared to the CH M 1 s
Put some large orchestral work on ( or house music ) and turn up the volume a bit .

The bass control on the CAT JL7s is really, really good. Better than some solid state amps (e.g. Pass XA165.5).

But when I got the CH M1.1s it was clearly superior in that regard.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The bass control on the CAT JL7s is really, really good. Better than some solid state amps (e.g. Pass XA165.5).

But when I got the CH M1.1s it was clearly superior in that regard.

Is there any relevance in that Magico are often paired w CH P, but Wilson aren't?

 

[LL21]

The bass control on the CAT JL7s is really, really good. Better than some solid state amps (e.g. Pass XA165.5).

But when I got the CH M1.1s it was clearly superior in that regard.

I do wonder whether there might happen to be a big difference between CH stereo and monos in bass control. I have heard this observation about bass from 1 or 2 others who have heard both CH 1.1 series stereo and monos before. Apparently going mono made a difference to both of these individuals.

 

[Al M.]

The bass control on the CAT JL7s is really, really good. Better than some solid state amps (e.g. Pass XA165.5).

But when I got the CH M1.1s it was clearly superior in that regard.

As Ian said. I have heard both amps at his house, and while the CATs were really good in the bass, the CH M1.1s are better.

Great articulation and pitch definition in the bass. Great grip and authority, the latter making good use of the three 10 inch woofers of each M Project speaker. Low piano notes are fantastic too.

All at zero feedback.