Natural Sound

[bazelio]

No, I am addressing the proper reviews by known reviewers.


Threshold of what?

Yes, several times. Using test records and SpectraPlus. I did not keep the spectra, the EMT 927 was the poorest measuring but sounded very good. In fairness I should say they my particular EMT measured exceptionally well for such turntable, significantly better than the manufacturer specifications.

I heard the EMT 927 has a staggeringly high wow + flutter. Something like 1-2% if I'm remembering. Indeed it sounds good by all accounts, but we can't consider it to provide accurate playback.

 

[microstrip]

If I'd known it bothered you so much I would have started sooner. I don't know what "speed epithet" means.

It bothers me because it is misleading and incorrect, misrepresenting the true objective claims of the manufacturer.

As examples these measurements are a across the side of a record. That level of accuracy for what? Roughly 20 minutes? Sure seems like accuracy that holds steady across a side is stable accuracy. Call it what you.

Again, accuracy is a mean. In a properly designed direct drive system having modern controllers the accuracy is the same of the main crystal oscillator - the system works in a closed loop. What matters most for sound quality are the speed deviations - it is why GPA just list their impressive figures in their page specifications.

IMHO if we want to present objective data from others we can't call it what we want. We must call it what it really is or at less what the manufacturer says. Manufacturers most of the time use some freedom in marketing literature , that I can easily accept, but here we are discussing correlations with sound quality and ranking.

Quoting from from their site: Monaco 2.0 : Peak deviation from mean = 0.00008% 3 sigma. R.M.S. deviation from mean = 0.000057%.

 

[microstrip]

1. Fair enough. The reviewers did their own testing or measuring of speed performance. You didn’t answer the question about what measuring technique they used. Nor within what tolerance

We have had sixty years of turntable reviews in magazines showing measurements using all kinds of measurement equipment. Considering you still seem to ignore them and ask naive questions it is not possible to answer your questions. For a modern review of a top measuring turntable please see https://www.hifinews.com/content/technics-sl-1000r-turntablearm-lab-report

2. Threshold for speed accuracy and consistency. You did not answer the question Whether the review were’s discussed what degree of tolerance is audible or matters.

I asked the question. If I knew the answer I will have posted it. Anyway I would not trust in a magazine or review for such kind of information. Typical values for needed accuracy reported in the 60's were around 0.1%.

3. Relative speed performance between the three turntables does not surprise me but you did not answer the question about what the speed results were. When you say poor speed performance, what do you mean? How did it sound better than the other two turntables? In what ways?

Sorry, please read my post again and do not imagine I said or listened things I did not write. And unless you read something elsewhere about turntable measurements it is no point going on on debating measurements.

I must say you ask for a lot of specifics from others and then don’t provide your own.

No, I provided many of them on the critical aspects of speed measurements but you failed to understand them. I addressed mainly objective aspects. Apologies for not being able to explain better.

 

[microstrip]

I heard the EMT 927 has a staggeringly high wow + flutter. Something like 1-2% if I'm remembering. Indeed it sounds good by all accounts, but we can't consider it to provide accurate playback.

Fortunately mine was around .045% weighted wow and flutter - I measured it with two separate wow and flutter meters - they sell these things cheap on eBay and a few years ago I got a few to check my Studer A80. I would have sent it in the dust bin if it returned the 1-2% value you report.

Even rumble was around 68dB - much better than the quoted result.

 

[bazelio]

Fortunately mine was around .045% weighted wow and flutter - I measured it with two separate wow and flutter meters - they sell these things cheap on eBay and a few years ago I got a few to check my Studer A80. I would have sent it in the dust bin if it returned such value. Even rumble was around 68dB - much better than the quoted result.

Oh, that's exceptional.

 

[morricab]

Rega demonstrated this many years ago with a 3 phase motor(I think). What is in the Grad Prix? Is it a sinusoidal commutated motor or DC?

 

[morricab]

1. Fair enough. The reviewers did their own testing or measuring of speed performance. You didn’t answer the question about what measuring technique they used. Nor within what tolerance

2. Threshold for speed accuracy and consistency. You did not answer the question Whether the review were’s discussed what degree of tolerance is audible or matters.

3. Relative speed performance between the three turntables does not surprise me but you did not answer the question about what the speed results were. When you say poor speed performance, what do you mean? How did it sound better than the other two turntables? In what ways?

I must say you ask for a lot of specifics from others and then don’t provide your own.

The British mags, hifi news and hifi world still do full TT measurements...

 

[morricab]

It bothers me because it is misleading and incorrect, misrepresenting the true objective claims of the manufacturer.



Again, accuracy is a mean. In a properly designed direct drive system having modern controllers the accuracy is the same of the main crystal oscillator - the system works in a closed loop. What matters most for sound quality are the speed deviations - it is why GPA just list their impressive figures in their page specifications.

IMHO if we want to present objective data from others we can't call it what we want. We must call it what it really is or at less what the manufacturer says. Manufacturers most of the time use some freedom in marketing literature , that I can easily accept, but here we are discussing correlations with sound quality and ranking.

Quoting from from their site: Monaco 2.0 : Peak deviation from mean = 0.00008% 3 sigma. R.M.S. deviation from mean = 0.000057%.

I would agree the precision is more important than the accuracy; however, I think that the abruptness in time of those corrections is also audible and transitions from slower to faster or vice versa shoukd not happen too fast or they damage the sound. The later Japanese decks went with more massive platters and sophisticated, Even layered, servos because the abrupt speed changes, even very tiny ones, could be heard as a kind of dryness and loss of harmonic complexity.

 

[bazelio]

Rega demonstrated this many years ago with a 3 phase motor(I think). What is in the Grad Prix? Is it a sinusoidal commutated motor or DC?

Brushless DC.

 

[tima]

What is in the Grad Prix? Is it a sinusoidal commutated motor or DC?

Custom BLDC Slotless. I'd like to see it run off a battery.

Short of some sort of test bed where the parameters of interest (and only these) can be varied both systematically and randomly, I can't envision it. Too much has changed between 1.5 and 2.0 for sure, though. And IMO the only viable (marketing) justification for its MSRP and its entire point of differentiation is its extreme speed performance, so it'd be awfully inconvenient if that wasn't deemed largely responsible for its SQ.

We see the differences in the speed measurements. In the absence of some sort of proof, demonstration or theory that expalins the large majority improvement in sound quality as a result of something besides the new motor and software/controller system, I'm acknowledging that as the explanation and agreeing with GPA enginers. I see no reason for GPA to hide that. I have no problem with scepticism if it can make a cogent case for itself but that, as far as I know, is not forthcoming.

 

[microstrip]

I would agree the precision is more important than the accuracy; however, I think that the abruptness in time of those corrections is also audible and transitions from slower to faster or vice versa shoukd not happen too fast or they damage the sound. The later Japanese decks went with more massive platters and sophisticated, Even layered, servos because the abrupt speed changes, even very tiny ones, could be heard as a kind of dryness and loss of harmonic complexity.

Yes, the audibility of the corrections will always be a subject of discussion. In essence it is the question of using or not feedback. Some people will shiver with idea that there is feedback in their turntables - but only when they know about it.

My best analog source - the Studer A80 - has a lot of feedback in the direct capstan motor (the outer rotor is part of the capstan). Any speed instability would be immediately transmitted to the tape. Never read of any hard core audiophile suffering from it. As top tape machines were used mainly by professionals and a lot of research went on it, special instruments were developed to analyze and diagnose tape movement. Unfortunately turntables still rely the on the accuracy and the very limited wow and flutter data, although fortunately some reviews include their spectra.

 

[microstrip]

(...) We see the differences in the speed measurements. In the absence of some sort of proof, demonstration or theory that expalins the large majority improvement in sound quality as a result of something besides the new motor and software/controller system, I'm acknowledging that as the explanation and agreeing with GPA enginers. I see no reason for GPA to hide that. I have no problem with scepticism if it can make a cogent case for itself but that, as far as I know, is not forthcoming.

As often referred by Morricab the change from a cored motor to a slotless motor is a dramatic change that affects a lot the performance of the turntable, although it does not affect accuracy.

As long as you do not separate accuracy from precision from stability (three very different things) you will not be able to explain what is clearly said in the GPA whitepaper.

 

[morricab]

Custom BLDC Slotless. I'd like to see it run off a battery.



We see the differences in the speed measurements. In the absence of some sort of proof, demonstration or theory that expalins the large majority improvement in sound quality as a result of something besides the new motor and software/controller system, I'm acknowledging that as the explanation and agreeing with GPA enginers. I see no reason for GPA to hide that. I have no problem with scepticism if it can make a cogent case for itself but that, as far as I know, is not forthcoming.

Can’t run it off of a battery because contrary to the name it is not really a dc motor. They require sinusoidal commutation (or some other waveform). This kind of motor can achieve very good results.

 

[PeterA]

Here are two videos of Schubert's Winterreise with Schreier and Richter, Melodia. Bonzo recommended this excellent LP to me and I really enjoy it. The recording is live. Note the cough in Part 1. I recorded the first two parts. Interestingly, in my former system, the two parts seemed about the same volume. With my new system, Part 2 sounds louder, which is reflected in the videos.

My father took me and Al M. to hear this music live a couple of years ago at a local concert hall. This recording brings back those wonderful memories. Thank you Ked for the recommendation.

Part 1:

Part 2:

 

[ddk]

Here are two videos of Schubert's Winterreise with Schreier and Richter, Melodia. Bonzo recommended this excellent LP to me and I really enjoy it. The recording is live. Note the cough in Part 1. I recorded the first two parts. Interestingly, in my former system, the two parts seemed about the same volume. With my new system, Part 2 sounds louder, which is reflected in the videos.

My father took me and Al M. to hear this music live a couple of years ago at a local concert hall. This recording brings back those wonderful memories. Thank you Ked for the recommendation.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Richness, subtlety and depth of tones come through from the first few notes!

david

 

[bazelio]

Custom BLDC Slotless. I'd like to see it run off a battery.



We see the differences in the speed measurements. In the absence of some sort of proof, demonstration or theory that expalins the large majority improvement in sound quality as a result of something besides the new motor and software/controller system, I'm acknowledging that as the explanation and agreeing with GPA enginers. I see no reason for GPA to hide that. I have no problem with scepticism if it can make a cogent case for itself but that, as far as I know, is not forthcoming.

Yes, it was understood from the beginning that you're taking the manufacturer at their word.

 

[morricab]

Here are two videos of Schubert's Winterreise with Schreier and Richter, Melodia. Bonzo recommended this excellent LP to me and I really enjoy it. The recording is live. Note the cough in Part 1. I recorded the first two parts. Interestingly, in my former system, the two parts seemed about the same volume. With my new system, Part 2 sounds louder, which is reflected in the videos.

My father took me and Al M. to hear this music live a couple of years ago at a local concert hall. This recording brings back those wonderful memories. Thank you Ked for the recommendation.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Very nice Peter! Can really sense the presence of the performers and piano has natural weight and tone.

 

[tima]

Can’t run it off of a battery because contrary to the name it is not really a dc motor. They require sinusoidal commutation (or some other waveform). This kind of motor can achieve very good results.

Brad, perhaps you are right. Lloyd has a different take.

 

[microstrip]

Can’t run it off of a battery because contrary to the name it is not really a dc motor. They require sinusoidal commutation (or some other waveform). This kind of motor can achieve very good results.

Yes. but the controller that generates the waveforms runs on DC - the Oracle Delphi III used a brushless motor and I operated it with two 12V lead batteries in series.

 

[tima]

Here are two videos of Schubert's Winterreise with Schreier and Richter, Melodia. Bonzo recommended this excellent LP to me and I really enjoy it. The recording is live. Note the cough in Part 1. I recorded the first two parts. Interestingly, in my former system, the two parts seemed about the same volume. With my new system, Part 2 sounds louder, which is reflected in the videos.

My father took me and Al M. to hear this music live a couple of years ago at a local concert hall. This recording brings back those wonderful memories. Thank you Ked for the recommendation.

Part 1:

Part 2:

Thank you. Always nice to have a catalog number.