Rock and Drum videos thread

[stehno]

no luck on shazam with this one, what is it please.

So Johnny A., eh? Thanks for that. This other track you inquired about is actually entitled "Dynamic Drums" from a Legacy Audio Sampler I CD (Legacy had 2 samplers) but the jacket is buried in storage so no clue on the artist. Youtube is usually pretty good about automatically retrieving the actual song title and artist shortly after upload - most times anyway. YT must also be interfacing with shazam. Pretty remarkable actually as that database must be huge.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

So Johnny A., eh? Thanks for that. This other track you inquired about is actually entitled "Dynamic Drums" from a Legacy Audio Sampler I CD (Legacy had 2 samplers) but the jacket is buried in storage so no clue on the artist. Youtube is usually pretty good about automatically retrieving the actual song title and artist shortly after upload - most times anyway. YT must also be interfacing with shazam. Pretty remarkable actually as that database must be huge.

so i have 50% chance of having that track as somewhere I have one of those cd's, have to start

 

[PeterA]

Hi, Peter. Both this and the Walkiing on the Moon track seem to be pretty well-engineered recordings. In fact, I searched for the Walking on the Moon CD this morning but it seems out of print except for a used one on eBay for $179. It's not quite that nice.

Anyway, there were 2 rather significant aspects regarding your comments both here and in your Walking on the Moon post that it seems you and perhaps a few others overlooked.

1. Though it seems apparent that both recordings are on the superior side of the egineering fence it also seems clear both playback systems are not all that resolving/musical. For the simple reason the first recording clearly sounds like it's being played back in a room about the size of a large walk-in closet and the second recording clearly sounds like it's being played back in a room the size of a large kitchen or at most maybe a 2 car garage tops. IOW, there's very little expansiveness in either's playback presentation because the playback systems' resolution is such that much of the ambient info embedded in the recording is inaudible at the speaker. As a result we're hearing the listening room itself which is never a good sign. Along with that there is muffled bass, drums, etc and clearly the 2nd system with the Audio Tekne integrated seems to show more promise than the first system.

It's really an audible battle between the listening room's acoustics and the live performance's volumes of ambient info embedded in the recording where the playback system's noise floor level determines the winner and loser. But it's never a good sign when the listening room wins because that's when the performance becomes unbelievable. To the best of my knowledge, one should never ever hear my listening room's acoustics with any of my in-room recordings or for that matter perhaps any recording in my listening room. If I thought that was the case, I wouldn't bother sharing my in-room recordings because that level of playback is a dime a dozen. Even those like INXS, Donovan, The Guess Who, or The Edgar Winter Group and numerous others which seem to be recorded in much smaller recording studios, one should still only hear the small recording venue's ambient info and not my much smaller listening room's acoustic anomalies.

To compare and contrast this I'd like to suggest listening to those two recordings you really like more closely and try to imagine the size of the room in which you're listening based on the reverberation times, etc. Then listen to Teen Town by Weather Report I posted above for which I suspect that performance took place in a recording hall maybe about half the size of a full-basketball court. Or perhaps listen to this drum solo below that I'd guess took place in a recording hall maybe 1/3rd the size of a full basketball court. But I'm guessing. In either of my videos, I hear a rather large, expansive, lively, and airy presentation exactly like I would hope to hear from of a larger recording hall and I can assure you my somewhat smallish listening room ain't none of those things. But of course I'm biased.

Regardless, when a playback system lacks resolution (all do to one great extent or another), it's an across-the-board thing as all sonic characteristics suffer equally but some suffering characteristics seem more easily apparent than others. Hearing the listening room's acoustics is most always a dead giveaway of a playback system's lack of resolution because much of the volumes of ambient info of the live performance is captured / embedded into even some of the most inferior recordings. The smaller the room sounds the less the recording hall's ambient info is remaining audible from the recording at the speaker. This most always implies a much raised noise floor and hence a less resolving the playback system.

IMO, the ambient info is the absolute lowest of all low-level detail and if that is true then that is the first thing that starts becoming inaudible by the time the signal reaches the speaker. Such that we're now seemly hearing only or mostly just the listening room. I like to think in my case, I've so dramatically lowered my playback system's noise floor such that the live performance's volumes of ambient info embedded in most every recording (remember it's the lowest of all low-level detail) completely? overshadows my listening room's acoustics every time. In fact, that's one reason why I share my in-room recordings.

2. I think I'll save the other even more signficant aspect for another time as I suspect this one aspect I mentioned above is enough potential controversy for the time being.

Stehno, I listened to all three recordings again this morning, the two I commented on and your recent video. Your video certainly sounds different and people are free to comment as they choose. To me, your video sounds very clean with a lot of detail and silence, but it seems a bit sterile and lifeless.

What I like about the other two is that they sounded like drums to me. They are alive and full of energy. The bass quality is excellent as one hears the hollowness, not just the impact of the lowest drum. The scale and balance and proportion of the various drums sound very realistic and appropriate. Your recording is very dynamic with great contrast, and it is certainly "impressive", but somehow something seems missing. The various drums almost seem separate and exist on their own rather than of a whole kit. The other videos are not perfect, but pretty good over the iPhone/YouTube video format. It is a shame that we can't hear the same single track on all three systems for a true comparison, and I would love to hear the track on vinyl, especially for the tone.

Anyway, those are my more detailed thoughts on the differences. I look forward to reading about the other "even more significant aspect" that you will share with us.

 

[jeff1225]

Reading some of these comments I can't help but wonder if some people really understand what they're saying.

I play Teen Town quite often, and I can’t say I like this video. It’s sterile and lifeless. I’ve liked some of you other videos so I’m not sure what’s going on with this video.

 

[stehno]

Stehno, I listened to all three recordings again this morning, the two I commented on and your recent video. Your video certainly sounds different and people are free to comment as they choose. To me, your video sounds very clean with a lot of detail and silence, but it seems a bit sterile and lifeless.

What I like about the other two is that they sounded like drums to me. They are alive and full of energy. The bass quality is excellent as one hears the hollowness, not just the impact of the lowest drum. The scale and balance and proportion of the various drums sound very realistic and appropriate. Your recording is very dynamic with great contrast, and it is certainly "impressive", but somehow something seems missing. The various drums almost seem separate and exist on their own rather than of a whole kit. The other videos are not perfect, but pretty good over the iPhone/YouTube video format. It is a shame that we can't hear the same single track on all three systems for a true comparison, and I would love to hear the track on vinyl, especially for the tone.

Anyway, those are my more detailed thoughts on the differences. I look forward to reading about the other "even more significant aspect" that you will share with us.

Actually Peter, there were 4 recordings, Teen Town by Weather Report being the 4th which would have been a better example to illustrate my point than the drum solo video.

Yes, clearly we all have our preferences - which often times is dependent or associated with what we're used to hearing at home or what we expect or hope to hear based on our own reference systems because that's what we're familiar with. This also applies to some-to-many who frequently attend live performances.

But my point in my last post to you was not which type of sound you prefer or like as you've already made that clear. Rather my suggestion was to listen closely to all 4 videos (especially Teen Town) and try to imagine the size of the rooms (recording halls) in which the presentation is delivered, especially listening for reverberation / decay / delay times and their expanse. As the closer a playback presentation sounds to listening in a carpeted walk-in closet the more the giveawy that the playback system lacks resolution due to a much rasied noise floor. Along with other sonic characterist shortcomings.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time.

 

[stehno]

I play Teen Town quite often, and I can’t say I like this video. It’s sterile and lifeless. I’ve liked some of you other videos so I’m not sure what’s going on with this video.

Interesting, Jeffrey. This Teen Town comes from a run-of-the-mill 1970's CD Heavy Weather (no greatest hits, no remastering (I think) so perhaps you have a better version. Sterile and lifeless? Ummm, ok. But as mentioned to Peter, the reason for my pointing to that video was not whether somebody preferred it or not, but more of an exercise to listen to the reverb / decay times to try to imagine the size of the recording hall in which the original performance occurred.

IOW, hopefully nobody here will accuse that recording of sounding like the original performance took place in some dinky confined recording studio or walk-in closet. Otherwise, we've got a whole new bag of issues.

 

[stehno]

so i have 50% chance of having that track as somewhere I have one of those cd's, have to start

If you don't have it, lemme know as I may have an extra copy somewhere.

BTW, I see you're a Rush/Neil Peart fan. Above is Neil in action.

But beware. This performance was recorded in a very very large space so if your listening skills are anything like some others you just might find this recording EXTREMELY sterile and lifeless. Just sayin'...

 

[marty]

BTW, I see you're a Rush/Neil Peart fan. Above is Neil in action.

But beware. This performance was recorded in a very very large space so if your listening skills are anything like some others you just might find this recording EXTREMELY sterile and lifeless. Just sayin'...

Peart is a drummer who garners perhaps the most diverse opinions of any rock drummer. He is on both "best drummers of all time" lists as well as "most over-rated drummers of all time" lists. My own view is, well, let's just say that when I saw him rated higher than Buddy Rich on one of the "greatest" lists, I realized there are a lot of folks who should not be making up lists!

By contrast, I don't ever recall seeing Bonham on anything but the former, and for good reason. I came across this recently and loved it.

 

[jeff1225]

Peart is a drummer who garners perhaps the most diverse opinions of any rock drummer. He is on both "best drummers of all time" lists as well as "most over-rated drummers of all time" lists. My own view is, well, let's just say that when I saw him rated higher than Buddy Rich on one of the "greatest" lists, I realized there are a lot of folks who should not be making up lists!

By contrast, I don't ever recall seeing Bonham on anything but the former, and for good reason. I came across this recently and loved it.

These lists are 100% subjective. I’d put Peary higher than Rich anytime of the day. Add that he wrote the majority of Rush lyrics, he’s in a different class than Rich.

 

[marty]

These lists are 100% subjective. I’d put Peary higher than Rich anytime of the day. Add that he wrote the majority of Rush lyrics, he’s in a different class than Rich.

Different strokes for different folks. Having a drum set that requires aerial views does not make a drummer great. As you know, his life story is heart wrenching and whatever his accomplishments, he's a well-respected musician for his many talents.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

If you don't have it, lemme know as I may have an extra copy somewhere.

BTW, I see you're a Rush/Neil Peart fan. Above is Neil in action.

But beware. This performance was recorded in a very very large space so if your listening skills are anything like some others you just might find this recording EXTREMELY sterile and lifeless. Just sayin'...

I have pretty much everything Peart, there is not much more satisfying than Peart Arena double kick drums, he figured that out decades ago. If he went out on stage and only played kick drums for a couple hours I would walk out with a smile on cloud nine. In general I don't care for arena recordings but that $hit was amazing.
For those that are saying over rated are clearly not paying attention or are eating jellysickles.
Buddy Rich was Neils number one influence and if you don't see that in almost everything he did you are not paying attention. Those two played the most musical solos out of most of them out there. Billy Cobham being another along with Carl Palmer.
We all like what we like and like the dude says, well like that's your opinion man.

 

[stehno]

Peart is a drummer who garners perhaps the most diverse opinions of any rock drummer. He is on both "best drummers of all time" lists as well as "most over-rated drummers of all time" lists. My own view is, well, let's just say that when I saw him rated higher than Buddy Rich on one of the "greatest" lists, I realized there are a lot of folks who should not be making up lists!

By contrast, I don't ever recall seeing Bonham on anything but the former, and for good reason. I came across this recently and loved it.

Thanks for that, Marty. Though that was more than I ever needed to know, it was quite educational and nicely done. And I see now what you mean aobut Bonham. In high school I owned one 1 Led Zeplin album and really liked it. I might even still have it somewhere. Anyway, your video prompted me today to purchase four LZ cd's which I'd been meaning to do some time.

As for where Neil Peart sits in the who's who of drummers list or if he should even be on such a list. Neil impresses me that he's first and foremost a born entertainer (and a frickin' 1-man band) and for that category he's probably among the best. Kinda' like a Freddie Mercury or Michael Jackson were born entertainers. And we pay first and foremost to be entertained, right? I presume no two great drummers are alike as each brings their own twist or niche and that's what makes them worth watching. And now I can see where Bonham adds his own twist and briliance.

To deviate just a bit. I grew up playing hockey and loved watching Bobby Orr (the GOAT) and did everything I could to model my style of play after his - even down to the location and amount of tape used on his stick. But as entertaining as Orr was I see Micahel Jordan as the greatest entertainer in the history of sports with Orr a distant second and I'm not really much of a fan of basketball. With Jordan or Orr there was potential magic with every shift. In contrast, there are few-to-some who claim LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan and he just might be. But I don't see it and I almost fall asleep watching James play and I wouldn't pay even $1 to see James play. Jordan on the other hand, like Orr, could have the fans standing on their feet with every play. That's kinda' how I see Peart. Like Jordan or Orr or even Fred Astaire, an effortless almost magical style of play.

The guy who compiled your video really went thru some pain to explain what Bonham is doing and it was indeed educational. I know nothing about drums or drummers except that my oldest brother was a drummer for about 30 years and drums do fascinate me as do many music instruments.

Anyway, thanks for sharing.

 

[bonzo75]

Peart is a drummer who garners perhaps the most diverse opinions of any rock drummer. He is on both "best drummers of all time" lists as well as "most over-rated drummers of all time" lists. My own view is, well, let's just say that when I saw him rated higher than Buddy Rich on one of the "greatest" lists, I realized there are a lot of folks who should not be making up lists!

By contrast, I don't ever recall seeing Bonham on anything but the former, and for good reason. I came across this recently and loved it.

I don't like Peart and Rush at all. Overrated is right. Aerial views with zero music.

 

[stehno]

I don't like Peart and Rush at all. Overrated is right. Aerial views with zero music.

I've never cared for Rush but I do like Peart. Saw Rush back in '76 who was the unknown warm up band for KISS. Speaking of entertainers... I saw KISS in '75 who was the unknown warm up band for ZZ Top. I fell asleep 20 minutes into the ZZ Top concert. Literally.

 

[marty]

Gentlemen,
There are so many great musicians and so little time. We are blessed in many ways. As the great Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg pointed out to audiophiles 30 years ago, this is the first time in human history that we can listen to reproductions of almost any music from any era with great verisimultude due to our reproduction technology. Couldn't do that 100 years ago. Enjoy it all.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Peart is a drummer who garners perhaps the most diverse opinions of any rock drummer. He is on both "best drummers of all time" lists as well as "most over-rated drummers of all time" lists. My own view is, well, let's just say that when I saw him rated higher than Buddy Rich on one of the "greatest" lists, I realized there are a lot of folks who should not be making up lists!

By contrast, I don't ever recall seeing Bonham on anything but the former, and for good reason. I came across this recently and loved it.

John Henry Bonham was the $hit, the triplet master. I love watching him play whenever I can. There will never be another, just like Neil.
Put on In My Time of Dying (studio) and crank it up, so much power and emotion in the song it moved you, the dynamics...damn.
Here is seventeen minutes of triplets (audio only).

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

Such a wicked left hand just like his number one influence Buddy Rich.

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

We can finish it off with a little comedy and The Master, keep an eye on the left hand!

 

[Hi-FiGuy]

In a galaxy far far away I was attending a Billy Cobham drum seminar and someone asked him the question, when you get stuck and can't think of anything to practice what do you do. Immediately he responded, practice your snare, its the hardest drum to play, focus on it and it alone.

 

[stehno]

In a galaxy far far away I was attending a Billy Cobham drum seminar and someone asked him the question, when you get stuck and can't think of anything to practice what do you do. Immediately he responded, practice your snare, its the hardest drum to play, focus on it and it alone.

Yeah, sure, but..... Now I've no dog in this fight but how many of these other no-doubt great drummers were also genuine 1-man-bands? I listened to the entire 16:55 and as nice as it was, I was kinda' ready to wrap things up after about 7 minutes. But I have a feelin' I could probably completely engage the entire evening if Peart performed solo for hours. That's called entertainment and many ain't got that.

Actually he thinks way outside the box and I suspect that's what makes him great. Again, I know next to nothing about any of these guys, but that's entertainment. And ultimately, no matter how much some might dig deep into the weeds, ultimately entertainment reigns superior. I think. Anyway, if there was a survey my vote goes to Neil as the GOAT. Not only was he a 1-man-band but he was also all-in-one. He could be everything if he wanted. And he just demonstrated that in the video I provided earlier. That's pretty awesome stuff actually.
-----------------------------------------
Dammit, I just watched the Neil solo video again. Gotta' remember he not just played an 8-minute song he wrote. From this piece it seems to me that Neil wrote a small book with 5 very impressive chapters with one leading quite nicely to the next before venturing off in another direction and concluded in an almost 1812 Overture sort of way. Who else can do THAT?

If there's any other videos of Neil Peart solos especially in concert I'd love to know about them.

I'm starting to think Neil might be tribal.