Peter A.’s System: A Perspective on Natural Sound

Andrew S.

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2021
278
369
70
Hobart, Tasmania
I like that video. Milstein was a great violinist.
Ah, well that answers that.

I am in the minority!

Milstein was a great violinist. I am playing that an EMI recording of his Partitas (streamed via Primephonic) right now, as I prepare supper. Superb.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,861
6,935
1,400
the Upper Midwest
Ah, well that answers that.

I am in the minority!

Heh.

You don't like Milstein?
Or Bach?
Or Sonatas and Partitas? I understand - perhaps an acquired taste.

How 'bout Grumiaux on the last?

Edit:
Granted, it's a video and I have cheapo desktop speakers so maybe I'm missing something. I didn't hear etch or stringency.

I think I cross posted and didna see yr earlier comment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrew S.

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,646
13,677
2,710
London
Oh...dear me.

I must respectfully disagree with you.

I found the YouTube Video (and thank you for posting it incidentally) about as far away from natural as I could be.

It has the very etched front edge aggressiveness and over wrought emphasis which I personally abhor, and which doesn't reflect my personal experience of what the sound of a violin is. A violin is, in my respectful opinion, also not as large and forceful as that is. That sounded....amplified.

But then I very sensitive to this particular type of sound. Probably why in box speakers, I much prefer silk dome tweeters and paper cones. Particularly with SS.

Please accept my apologies if I have offended in anyway. It is not my intention. And of course what is one man's wine is anothers poison.

I would be very interested to see what Tima feels about the posted video.

Rgds

T.

That's fine if you disagree. It tells me more about your experience relating to videos and gear
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,646
13,677
2,710
London
now now ...

No that's true. Ask Tom if he records gear and plays back. Did he compare the video to his system or to a video of his system? I already know the answer
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrew S.

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,531
5,068
1,228
Switzerland
I like that video. Milstein was a great violinist.
I recorded my ex with this piece once as she was learning it for a competition. Deceptively difficult to play. She also performed it in a house concert prior to the competition along with several other pieces that were with piano (huge Bosendorfer concert grand) . I will never forget the tone and power of a single violin being practiced in a hallway for that piece
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrew S.

Andrew S.

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2021
278
369
70
Hobart, Tasmania
Heh.

You don't like Milstein?
Or Bach?
Or Sonatas and Partitas? I understand - perhaps an acquired taste.

How 'bout Grumiaux on the last?

Oh no - I love all Bach, and Milstein is superb. I have him on right now.

Granted, it's a video and I have cheapo desktop speakers so maybe I'm missing something. I didn't hear etch or stringency.

No, I think the video quality was fine - no, I think we just hear different things, and have different preferences.

There is no question I am very sensitive to what I regard as aggressive front edge, and higher notes in general.

That's fine if you disagree. It tells me more about your experience relating to videos and gear

Good man.

Doesn't it speak volumes of me though! Well said. :)

FWIW - I have heard more than my fair share of horns over years, from single driver (various) to Cessaro to Tune Audio and of course Avantgardes (which I have yet to love regardless of the lungs of it).

I actually love horns and SET's, and would be such a proud owner of Peter's system I cannot say - not that I have anywhere remotely suitable for corner horns.

It matters little I suspect, but my elder sister Fiona played the viola, to national youth orchestra level, obtained a degree in performance in it - so was subjected to endless practice not far from my ears (which over 10 years was something of an ask....). I also played in an orchestra growing up (dreadful trumpet player) so have something of an idea of what I like the sound of.

Grudgingly Fiona could also carry a tune, by the bye.
 
  • Like
Reactions: morricab and tima

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,646
13,677
2,710
London
Sorry Tom, not about gear.... But videos relating to gear
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrew S.

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,531
5,068
1,228
Switzerland
I've read (crossing myself) objectivists see an association with amplifier slew rate. Maximum change of voltage or current per unit of time. But it seems like an 'overshoot'.

The notion applies to low frequencies too, doesn't it?
I don’t think skew rate is the key. Tube amps that sound very clean and natural in the highs are usually not very high skew rate. It has more to do with feedback and interaction with speakers and poor open loop linearity . Read the studies on distortion by Cheever and Geddes and Crowhurst...insightful I think.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrew S.

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,861
6,935
1,400
the Upper Midwest
I don’t think skew rate is the key. Tube amps that sound very clean and natural in the highs are usually not very high skew rate. It has more to do with feedback and interaction with speakers and poor open loop linearity . Read the studies on distortion by Cheever and Geddes and Crowhurst...insightful I think.

Thanks Brad - you know more about this. And thanks for reading Cheever and Geddes and Crowhurst ... so I don't have to. :)
 

Andrew S.

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2021
278
369
70
Hobart, Tasmania
No that's true. Ask Tom if he records gear and plays back. Did he compare the video to his system or to a video of his system? I already know the answer

Oh, I have offended you. I am so sorry. It wasn't any reflection of the video, which I thought was excellent.

You are 100% in all you say. I could not agree more.

I have no experience whatsoever in recording, none in posting videos and, as I may have mentioned, I don't even own any hi fi at this time.

For me - it is only about the music.

I suppose I should not post, and apologize again for any offence given.

It is the last thing I should wish to do.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,531
5,068
1,228
Switzerland
Oh...dear me.

I must respectfully disagree with you.

I found the YouTube Video (and thank you for posting it incidentally) about as far away from natural as I could be.

It has the very etched front edge aggressiveness and over wrought emphasis which I personally abhor, and which doesn't reflect my personal experience of what the sound of a violin is. A violin is, in my respectful opinion, also not as large and forceful as that is. That sounded....amplified.

But then I very sensitive to this particular type of sound. Probably why in box speakers, I much prefer silk dome tweeters and paper cones. Particularly with SS.

Please accept my apologies if I have offended in anyway. It is not my intention. And of course what is one man's wine is anothers poison.

I would be very interested to see what Tima feels about the posted video.

Rgds

T.
A violin can sound VERY powerful and forceful Tom. I have made numerous recordings and can tell you that capturing the full dynamic range of a single Strad is a nightmare without gain riding. In a normal room the sound is like a cannon. We can debate about the leading edges but not the size and power of the sound. Maybe you have only heard in a concert hall and then your perspective makes sense?
 

Andrew S.

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2021
278
369
70
Hobart, Tasmania
A violin can sound VERY powerful and forceful Tom. I have made numerous recordings and can tell you that capturing the full dynamic range of a single Strad is a nightmare without gain riding. In a normal room the sound is like a cannon. We can debate about the leading edges but not the size and power of the sound. Maybe you have only heard in a concert hall and then your perspective makes sense?

Oh yes I agree with you 100%.

No question violin is both dynamic and powerful. I apologize - clumsy words.

When I said amplified - I suppose I should have said it was turned up too loud for me.

I bet a recording is very hard to make. I have absolutely zero experience in it, and yes - you are 100% correct - my experience of violins these days is either where I can afford to sit at the concerts, or more usually in Chamber type settings. Slim pickings since Covid.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: morricab

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,531
5,068
1,228
Switzerland
Pianos and sopranos too.
My ex was patronised by one of the richest men in Switzerland because he held an annual competition and she won this in 2002. (They actually gave her both first and second prizes). This opened many doors here. He had a huge house in the middle of Zürich and one floor was like a music salon where they had this huge Bosendorfer. He would get famous (or almost famous) pianists there to play/record and my ex would do concerts with them. She lived at that time on a floor of this house. She was also attending the music conservatory in Zurich at this time and later in Paris under JJ Kantorow. Around that time she got use of a Strad and did four concerts doing the 24 Caprices in one go all from memory. I recorded the practice sessions on analog R2R.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,646
13,677
2,710
London
24 caprices in one go from memory? Wow
 

Rensselaer

VIP/Donor
Mar 23, 2021
575
459
275
69
It is easily audible.

In live we hear it whole, but while reproducing if you cannot hear the stroke correctly of a piano note with the body (very tough to do) and notes sound blunted it can get homogenized. In live we hear so many nuances intra note, in reproduced it easy to make the violin sound homogenized without variation.

Some highs and leading notes are hard and distorted. Others are dulled, blunted, and homogenized.

Getting it right is very difficult

Question is... Is there a conscious roll off or dulling in the system? It is hard to understand what is Peter's natural and what is Al's since we have never listened with them and Al doesn't care for videos

The videos here are excellent examples of how leading edge and transients should be to make it sound real. If people think this is hifi speak you can call this real and natural, and when not available, call it blunted.

Those horns look like the ones Bert Doppenberg of BD-Designs offers (Swing M3) in the Netherlands. Are they based upon those?
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing