State-of-the-Art Digital

[caesar]

Well IMHO not many, many but just some, as most top components that want to keep all the information and do not have a tailored sound signature.

Hi Microstrip,
Why do you think that's its mostly wilson fans that think that dCS is the "best" digital out there is?

My personal favorite dCS system is wth Scaena speakers, but some Avantgarde users are also very successful with dCS. But these system combination are very rare, niche plays..

Everyone else, other than wilson fans in high end, seems to have moved on or discovered something better for them. Interestingly, at a recent show, Alon Wolf was showing M2 Magicos with CH Precision electronics but MSB dacs.


Do you think wilson / dcs combinations are good synergy, blind trust in brand, preference developed over years of listening, others, combination? Just curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Microstrip,
Why do you think that's its mostly wilson fans that think that dCS is the "best" digital out there is?

My personal favorite dCS system is wth Scaena speakers, but some Avantgarde users are also very successful with dCS. But these system combination are very rare, niche plays..

Everyone else, other than wilson fans in high end, seems to have moved on or discovered something better for them. Interestingly, at a recent show, Alon Wolf was showing M2 Magicos with CH Precision electronics but MSB dacs.


Do you think wilson / dcs combinations are good synergy, blind trust in brand, preference developed over years of listening, others, combination? Just curious to hear your thoughts.

As often referred pairings at shows are mostly due to distribution arrangements, not to preferences. And this logically reflects in systems. I do not know from where you get information, I do not have the same feeling as you - I know about many Vivaldi users that do not have Wilson speakers and we do not see such movement of people leaving DCS Vivaldi's except a few cases in audio forums of people that need to tell it repetitively. Surely DCS sold and sells many Vivaldi's in the past, we can expect more people changing from DCS that from other brands. La Donna E Mobile affects all brands. Rumors and myths propagate very fast and last long in audioforums.

Sometime ago I had dinner with Raveen Bawa, head of sales for dCS, and he referred to me several great systems in Asian markets, that show how limited is our information on audio forums. The numbers in the high-end are small, it is very difficult to have a valid picture from a few small samples.

I can't answer your question on the wilson/dcs, my experience is too limited, I do not consider most shops, the shows or the reviews as real experience. I became fond of DCS top listening to it in non Wislon speakers - Audio Physics and Avalon's. The Vivaldi is an excellent match with the XLF's, allowing me to hear the back of the wall reflections and the relative power of individual sections of the orchestra, something that other speakers or DACs fail, although they can sound apparently more enjoyable. I think you have experience with Soundlab's A1 px - with the Soundlab's I would have stayed with the Metronome's, some of what the Vivaldi does better - for example, harmonic correctness and fine texture, does not show in the panels.

 

[caesar]

As often referred pairings at shows are mostly due to distribution arrangements, not to preferences. And this logically reflects in systems. I do not know from where you get information, I do not have the same feeling as you - I know about many Vivaldi users that do not have Wilson speakers and we do not see such movement of people leaving DCS Vivaldi's except a few cases in audio forums of people that need to tell it repetitively. Surely DCS sold and sells many Vivaldi's in the past, we can expect more people changing from DCS that from other brands. La Donna E Mobile affects all brands. Rumors and myths propagate very fast and last long in audioforums.

Sometime ago I had dinner with Raveen Bawa, head of sales for dCS, and he referred to me several great systems in Asian markets, that show how limited is our information on audio forums. The numbers in the high-end are small, it is very difficult to have a valid picture from a few small samples.

I can't answer your question on the wilson/dcs, my experience is too limited, I do not consider most shops, the shows or the reviews as real experience. I became fond of DCS top listening to it in non Wislon speakers - Audio Physics and Avalon's. The Vivaldi is an excellent match with the XLF's, allowing me to hear the back of the wall reflections and the relative power of individual sections of the orchestra, something that other speakers or DCAS fail, although they can sound apparently more enjoyable. I think you have experience with Soundlab's A1 px - with the Soundlab's I would have stayed with the Metronome's, some of what the Vivaldi does better - for example, harmonic correctness and fine texture, does not show in the panels.

Good post!
A couple of points: 1) a lot of dealers that carry dCS also sell wilson, so people are exposed to that sound. Audio fans who are less engaged in this hobby defer to authorities, such as their dealers or reviewers like "fearless" fremer and other wilson reviewers at stereophile who always present dcs as the "best digital"

(2) at this highest level of performance, and in the age of social media, the gear selection at shows is driven by desired good sound as they are relationships (of course, there are idiots). In the case of Magico, wolf can show with whatever he wants

 

[IanG-UK]

dCS is very "neutral". It's very system dependent, but I would say it will sound sterile in vast majority of today's systems.

dcs is very well engineered (I own their bridge, and it's incredible) but the British boys can't voice as well as msb or totaldac.

I just wonder what proportion of forum members want their dac to be designed for neutrality ( = unbiased sound, objective, without favouritism) and what proportion want it "voiced" ( = changed from the engineer's best technical output into something favoured by some but not by others)?

And if you are called msb or totaldac you qualify for the "voicing" accolade whereas if you are called sony or yamaha you qualify for something less praiseworthy?

 

[Al M.]

I just wonder what proportion of forum members want their dac to be designed for neutrality ( = unbiased sound, objective, without favouritism) and what proportion want it "voiced" ( = changed from the engineer's best technical output into something favoured by some but not by others)?

And if you are called msb or totaldac you qualify for the "voicing" accolade whereas if you are called sony or yamaha you qualify for something less praiseworthy?

I don't know about "voicing" of MSB vs dCS. I have never heard a comparison in the same system.

Regardless, I like to have neutral components, including cables, and voice my system with room acoustics and speaker set-up.

 

[caesar]

I just wonder what proportion of forum members want their dac to be designed for neutrality ( = unbiased sound, objective, without favouritism) and what proportion want it "voiced" ( = changed from the engineer's best technical output into something favoured by some but not by others)?

And if you are called msb or totaldac you qualify for the "voicing" accolade whereas if you are called sony or yamaha you qualify for something less praiseworthy?

Hi,

I think I understand what you are saying, but I believe it all depends on the one’s audio goals and on one’s perspective, of course...



I don’t have the whole history of how this came about, but the word “neutral” has earned a reputation for a non-musical , but frequently sterile/ analytical presentation. In my experience in this hobby , the manufacturer guy who pretends to be , and markets himself as , the “best engineer “ usually produces gear with horrible , analytical sound. But he speaks to a niche segment who want that. As I mentioned, for dcs , it’s a system -dependent and preference - dependent proposition.



Interestingly in this hobby , even if guys pursue “neutral” in their imagination, their system choices show endless variability. Even if gear is identical, rooms differ, so the sound is ultimately different ... So no one really knows what “neutral “ really means.

My high efficiency with SET system sounds more neutral to me than putting on an underpowered tube amp on a hard-to drive speaker like Wilson or magico for that tubey, syrupy sound , and also more neutral than using analytical SS to drive those same speakers...


I’ll leave those arguments about “neutral “ to the measurement guys, the Platonists , and audio fantasizers and imaginationists.



But from a practical perspective, of course, everything in high end audio has a sonic signature. We, audio fans, choose the luxury that appeals to our senses the most and provides us the experience we enjoy.



For example, Wilson Audio, the most successful high performance audio brand, has its own (very strong) sonic signature that many love and many hate. Very few of its fans would honestly claim that Wilson is “neutral”. If Wilson fans want more “neutral”, they would pair with Spectral ancillaries, but that’s very rare. Even the Wilsons themselves test their speaker with spectral to determine “what it really sounds like” but play it and show it with “non-neutral”/ “colored” VTL and audio Research gear. So I’m not convinced most people want “neutral”, but instead, may like some elements of the “neutral” sonic signature.



and yet people successfully pair wilson with dcs...No point arguing with their taste...



Personally, I care about what people like or don’t like as much as I care about their favorite color, their favorite pet, the fragrance of their favorite flower , or their favorite sexual position.





The bottom line is that the guys who can afford these really, really, really expensive toys , like $35K DACs, are usually very busy people. Their time should not be wasted!!!!!!!!



I actually tried dcs in several of my systems. So consider my post a public service announcement for those who may be severely allergic to that “neutral“ sound:



Those who have an idea of their taste and know what they like and don’t like , and have found that neutral is not “it” , should look past dcs despite the hype for the brand one comes across in (mis-incentivized) reviews and on audio boards. Although dcs is an excellent brand, Many will waste time, money, and be miserable with the sound.

 

[Al M.]

I don’t have the whole history of how this came about, but the word “neutral” has earned a reputation for a non-musical , but frequently sterile/ analytical presentation. In my experience in this hobby , the manufacturer guy who pretends to be , and markets himself as , the “best engineer “ usually produces gear with horrible , analytical sound. But he speaks to a niche segment who want that. As I mentioned, for dcs , it’s a system -dependent and preference - dependent proposition.

I don't care which reputation "neutral" has earned. Neutral means just that, neutral. Of course, nobody knows what absolute neutrality really would mean, but nonetheless it is an ideal.

 

[caesar]

I don't care which reputation "neutral" has earned. Neutral means just that, neutral. Of course, nobody knows what absolute neutrality really would mean, but nonetheless it is an ideal.

Sure, but like I said , people don’t always want it

 

[Elliot G.]

Caesar, I admire your enthusiasm and the yearning to discover some dark conspiracy however much of your efforts are severely misguided.
First people have a tendency to work with others they know at shows so they can help make the high costs more affordable.
For example and I will speak for Bending Wave so I am telling you the dark deep truth LOL
Axpona 2020 our room cost is ( rounded off numbers) 16000.00 plus internet access 600.
Depending on what we ship to the show freight and storage costs can amount to over 6000.00.
Last year we served Coffee and Bagels along with beer, soda, water and pizza and spent close to 5000.
We gave away T Shirts - 1500.
Of course me and my crew had to get to Chicago, sleep ,eat and travel back. This was at a cost of around 2000 a day for 5 days.
Got the picture?
So when we work with other manufacturers we are trying to limit the blood letting. This of course is only one show!!!
I have worked with CH Precision in the previous few events since I know them well, own their gear and have a relationship with them. We have brought in an analog source since people like to hear records and they have paid part of the room as well.

This year we won't be working with the same people because it is time to show our speakers with something else. It does not mean anything deep or dark just that I wanted to show our speakers with new gear and different technologies. I spoke to a few people I know and respect their gear to see if they wanted to work with us. This is the same for most manufacturers and distributors. If they have a long standing track record they may use the same ones over and over. THese are more business decisions then just a sound only choice. It does NOT mean that they don't like or enjoy another brand but rather they need to show and afford the space they are using and give the listeners another perspective, Its not sinister!!!!!!

We this year will be showing with VTL, WADAX, and BASIS Turntables. I am excited to work with them all and am thrilled that they want to show with us. I am looking forward to producing some great sound in the same room we had last year. These are big projects with short time schedules to get everything there and in pace and set up to try to make in sound what takes a lot longer in the real world in much better rooms.

Last thing Audio has a lot of vague terms that are tossed around like frisbees and sorry to say most have lost there meaning.
I suggest you go back and read the absolute sound from the beginning to HP's demise as he set forth the language and did his best to explain what all these terms meant. Both he and J. Gordon Holt truly developed a language to try to express what they were hearing.
Anyone's opinion is good enough for them but that does not mean that is correct.
One may think the earth is flat.
One may believe in God.
One may wait for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
One may think that their system is neutral.


Happy Holidays

 

[thomask]

Caesar, I admire your enthusiasm and the yearning to discover some dark conspiracy however much of your efforts are severely misguided.
First people have a tendency to work with others they know at shows so they can help make the high costs more affordable.
For example and I will speak for Bending Wave so I am telling you the dark deep truth LOL
Axpona 2020 our room cost is ( rounded off numbers) 16000.00 plus internet access 600.
Depending on what we ship to the show freight and storage costs can amount to over 6000.00.
Last year we served Coffee and Bagels along with beer, soda, water and pizza and spent close to 5000.
We gave away T Shirts - 1500.
Of course me and my crew had to get to Chicago, sleep ,eat and travel back. This was at a cost of around 2000 a day for 5 days.
Got the picture?
So when we work with other manufacturers we are trying to limit the blood letting. This of course is only one show!!!
I have worked with CH Precision in the previous few events since I know them well, own their gear and have a relationship with them. We have brought in an analog source since people like to hear records and they have paid part of the room as well.

This year we won't be working with the same people because it is time to show our speakers with something else. It does not mean anything deep or dark just that I wanted to show our speakers with new gear and different technologies. I spoke to a few people I know and respect their gear to see if they wanted to work with us. This is the same for most manufacturers and distributors. If they have a long standing track record they may use the same ones over and over. THese are more business decisions then just a sound only choice. It does NOT mean that they don't like or enjoy another brand but rather they need to show and afford the space they are using and give the listeners another perspective, Its not sinister!!!!!!

We this year will be showing with VTL, WADAX, and BASIS Turntables. I am excited to work with them all and am thrilled that they want to show with us. I am looking forward to producing some great sound in the same room we had last year. These are big projects with short time schedules to get everything there and in pace and set up to try to make in sound what takes a lot longer in the real world in much better rooms.

Last thing Audio has a lot of vague terms that are tossed around like frisbees and sorry to say most have lost there meaning.
I suggest you go back and read the absolute sound from the beginning to HP's demise as he set forth the language and did his best to explain what all these terms meant. Both he and J. Gordon Holt truly developed a language to try to express what they were hearing.
Anyone's opinion is good enough for them but that does not mean that is correct.
One may think the earth is flat.
One may believe in God.
One may wait for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
One may think that their system is neutral.


Happy Holidays

I look forward to dropping in your room with your Goebel speaker and Wadax digital setup.

I made a registration about 2 hours ago.

There may be too many things to do in three days over there.

Thus I may need to organize plan for essential rooms.

 

[IanG-UK]

Caesar: Thank you for your considered post which I understand and accept, albeit not agree with all of it from a personal point of view.

By the way, my earlier post should have been clearer in defining my understanding of neutral as being “nothing added” and “nothing taken away”.

My image at the time, which I avoided using as I don’t like to see issues inflamed, was one of
1. dCS having a testing room where 50 dCS Vivaldis were connected in alternate series with 50 dCS contra-Vivaldis with the dCS engineers showing that the output, after all these iterations, was identical to the input; and
2. MSB having an office with MSB marketeers sitting around twirling various dials until eveyone could agree that the electronics voicing was correct.

More seriously, I accept your prognosis that some hifi enthusiasts do like the equipment experience and the regular changing thereof as part of the hobby of music listening. And getting to something which delights them.

Others prefer the equipment involvement to be minimal but accept that the most significant variants in that chain are, in order of priority

1. the person’s mood, their ears, and the music and recording choice; followed by
2. the room and the speakers; followed by
3. the electronics, whether traditional equipment or cables or mains or vibration effects;

and that they concentrate on (1) and (2) to a greater extent than (3). And this delights them.

You could argue that the former group has complete freedom to act whereas the latter group imposes disciplines which they regard as fundamental to the “honesty” of (a slice of) the reproduction chain.

dCS may well be in this latter group. I suspect if we wrote to dCS and asked if they “voiced” their electronic gear, their reply would be clear.

Your earlier post suggests that MSB and Totaldac do voice their electronic gear, though I doubt you would get their written confirmation that they do this - and with what departure from “nothing added” and “nothing taken away” they seek to achieve!

This is an insoluble issue and I don’t wish to extend the debate unnecessarily.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
My high efficiency with SET system sounds more neutral to me than putting on an underpowered tube amp on a hard-to drive speaker like Wilson or magico for that tubey, syrupy sound , and also more neutral than using analytical SS to drive those same speakers...

Surely, distortion artifacts caused by current limitation sound horrible. As well as some analytical SS.

I’ll leave those arguments about “neutral “ to the measurement guys, the Platonists , and audio fantasizers and imaginationists.

But from a practical perspective, of course, everything in high end audio has a sonic signature. We, audio fans, choose the luxury that appeals to our senses the most and provides us the experience we enjoy.

I feel compelled to agree with you. But most people will consider what appeals to their senses the be the neutral.

For example, Wilson Audio, the most successful high performance audio brand, has its own (very strong) sonic signature that many love and many hate. Very few of its fans would honestly claim that Wilson is “neutral”. If Wilson fans want more “neutral”, they would pair with Spectral ancillaries, but that’s very rare. Even the Wilsons themselves test their speaker with spectral to determine “what it really sounds like” but play it and show it with “non-neutral”/ “colored” VTL and audio Research gear. So I’m not convinced most people want “neutral”, but instead, may like some elements of the “neutral” sonic signature.

IMHO Wilson signature is just a particular one like many others. For me current VTLs (7.5mk3 and Siegfried II ) are excessively neutral - a large difference to the preceding generation.
What is your opinion on the latest D'Agostino Momemtum's?

and yet people successfully pair wilson with dcs...No point arguing with their taste...

Personally, I care about what people like or don’t like as much as I care about their favorite color, their favorite pet, the fragrance of their favorite flower , or their favorite sexual position.

The bottom line is that the guys who can afford these really, really, really expensive toys , like $35K DACs, are usually very busy people. Their time should not be wasted!!!!!!!!

I actually tried dcs in several of my systems. So consider my post a public service announcement for those who may be severely allergic to that “neutral“ sound:

Can you share full details about the dCS models and your systems? Otherwise your advise lacks any support.

Those who have an idea of their taste and know what they like and don’t like , and have found that neutral is not “it” , should look past dcs despite the hype for the brand one comes across in (mis-incentivized) reviews and on audio boards. Although dcs is an excellent brand, Many will waste time, money, and be miserable with the sound.

 

[Barry2013]

Caesar: Thank you for your considered post which I understand and accept, albeit not agree with all of it from a personal point of view.

By the way, my earlier post should have been clearer in defining my understanding of neutral as being “nothing added” and “nothing taken away”.

My image at the time, which I avoided using as I don’t like to see issues inflamed, was one of
1. dCS having a testing room where 50 dCS Vivaldis were connected in alternate series with 50 dCS contra-Vivaldis with the dCS engineers showing that the output, after all these iterations, was identical to the input; and
2. MSB having an office with MSB marketeers sitting around twirling various dials until eveyone could agree that the electronics voicing was correct.

More seriously, I accept your prognosis that some hifi enthusiasts do like the equipment experience and the regular changing thereof as part of the hobby of music listening. And getting to something which delights them.

Others prefer the equipment involvement to be minimal but accept that the most significant variants in that chain are, in order of priority

1. the person’s mood, their ears, and the music and recording choice; followed by
2. the room and the speakers; followed by
3. the electronics, whether traditional equipment or cables or mains or vibration effects;

and that they concentrate on (1) and (2) to a greater extent than (3). And this delights them.

You could argue that the former group has complete freedom to act whereas the latter group imposes disciplines which they regard as fundamental to the “honesty” of (a slice of) the reproduction chain.

dCS may well be in this latter group. I suspect if we wrote to dCS and asked if they “voiced” their electronic gear, their reply would be clear.

Your earlier post suggests that MSB and Totaldac do voice their electronic gear, though I doubt you would get their written confirmation that they do this - and with what departure from “nothing added” and “nothing taken away” they seek to achieve!

This is an insoluble issue and I don’t wish to extend the debate unnecessarily.

I do very much share your definition of neutral. Reminds me of the advertising slogan for Hovis bread, a very well regarded and longstanding wholemeal bread in the UK, nowt taken out and nowt added

 

[phunge]

dCS may well be in this latter group. I suspect if we wrote to dCS and asked if they “voiced” their electronic gear, their reply would be clear.

John Darko asked them this very question, as part of his review of the Bartok DAC.

"They basically said that voicing, for them, is a dirty word. Their goal for the entire product is accuracy. They are very measurement focused in the lab, no internal change takes place without a measurement to justify why"

 

[marty]

Caesar, I admire your enthusiasm and the yearning to discover some dark conspiracy however much of your efforts are severely misguided.
First people have a tendency to work with others they know at shows so they can help make the high costs more affordable.
For example and I will speak for Bending Wave so I am telling you the dark deep truth LOL
Axpona 2020 our room cost is ( rounded off numbers) 16000.00 plus internet access 600.
Depending on what we ship to the show freight and storage costs can amount to over 6000.00.
Last year we served Coffee and Bagels along with beer, soda, water and pizza and spent close to 5000.
We gave away T Shirts - 1500.
Of course me and my crew had to get to Chicago, sleep ,eat and travel back. This was at a cost of around 2000 a day for 5 days.
Got the picture?
So when we work with other manufacturers we are trying to limit the blood letting. This of course is only one show!!!
I have worked with CH Precision in the previous few events since I know them well, own their gear and have a relationship with them. We have brought in an analog source since people like to hear records and they have paid part of the room as well.

This year we won't be working with the same people because it is time to show our speakers with something else. It does not mean anything deep or dark just that I wanted to show our speakers with new gear and different technologies. I spoke to a few people I know and respect their gear to see if they wanted to work with us. This is the same for most manufacturers and distributors. If they have a long standing track record they may use the same ones over and over. THese are more business decisions then just a sound only choice. It does NOT mean that they don't like or enjoy another brand but rather they need to show and afford the space they are using and give the listeners another perspective, Its not sinister!!!!!!

We this year will be showing with VTL, WADAX, and BASIS Turntables. I am excited to work with them all and am thrilled that they want to show with us. I am looking forward to producing some great sound in the same room we had last year. These are big projects with short time schedules to get everything there and in pace and set up to try to make in sound what takes a lot longer in the real world in much better rooms.

Last thing Audio has a lot of vague terms that are tossed around like frisbees and sorry to say most have lost there meaning.
I suggest you go back and read the absolute sound from the beginning to HP's demise as he set forth the language and did his best to explain what all these terms meant. Both he and J. Gordon Holt truly developed a language to try to express what they were hearing.
Anyone's opinion is good enough for them but that does not mean that is correct.
One may think the earth is flat.
One may believe in God.
One may wait for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
One may think that their system is neutral.


Happy Holidays

Now that's some damn good writing Elliot, especially the last stanza. And all this time we thought you were just another pretty face!

 

[Elliot G.]

I look forward to dropping in your room with your Goebel speaker and Wadax digital setup.

I made a registration about 2 hours ago.

There may be too many things to do in three days over there.

Thus I may need to organize plan for essential rooms.

It will be worth a visit and there will be some surprises

 

[IanG-UK]

I do very much share your definition of neutral. Reminds me of the advertising slogan for Hovis bread, a very well regarded and longstanding wholemeal bread in the UK, nowt taken out and nowt added

Yes I remember the advertisement and the accompanying classical music.

Its equivalent was used in the Quad strapline "for the closest approach to the original sound" along with a quote allegedly from Quad's main man, Peter Walker:

"Quad did listen to their amplifiers because the designers and many of the Quad staff used them at home in their systems. Many of our cherished recordings spanning perhaps three or more decades were mastered in studios using Quad amplifiers, not to mention many broadcasters. But its true that the II just like the 303 and 405 were never assessed during the design stage using music.
They'll have been assessed using various noise and test tones because Quad held the view that an amplifier has only one primary function, that of ensuring that what appears at the output matches that on the input in all but magnitude at audible frequencies.
That task can be performed just as well with tones as with music because the amplifier simply responds to changes in voltage and current. It cannot tell what is passing through it, music or otherwise."

 

[Al M.]

One may think the earth is flat.
One may believe in God.
One may wait for Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
One may think that their system is neutral.


Happy Holidays

Flat Earth, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are not debatable among reasonable, rational people. The other two are.

 

[microstrip]

Yes I remember the advertisement and the accompanying classical music.

Its equivalent was used in the Quad strapline "for the closest approach to the original sound" along with a quote allegedly from Quad's main man, Peter Walker:

"Quad did listen to their amplifiers because the designers and many of the Quad staff used them at home in their systems. Many of our cherished recordings spanning perhaps three or more decades were mastered in studios using Quad amplifiers, not to mention many broadcasters. But its true that the II just like the 303 and 405 were never assessed during the design stage using music.
They'll have been assessed using various noise and test tones because Quad held the view that an amplifier has only one primary function, that of ensuring that what appears at the output matches that on the input in all but magnitude at audible frequencies.
That task can be performed just as well with tones as with music because the amplifier simply responds to changes in voltage and current. It cannot tell what is passing through it, music or otherwise."

Well , it is probably why they had to issue a version 2 of the Quad 405 with less active current limiters - if they have listened they would have found earlier that with some existing speakers the 405 sounded horrible, even at moderate levels.

Anyway I have read that the net mesh glued to the stators that damps the ESL63 panels was tuned by listening, although Peter Walker designed the whole ESL63 based on mathematical models and no prototypes were built for listening.

 

[christoph]

Anyway I have read that the net mesh glued to the stators that damps the ESL63 panels was tuned by listening, although Peter Walker designed the whole ESL63 based on mathematical models and no prototypes were built for listening.

Maybe that is the reason why I vastly prefer the ESL57 over the ESL63