Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[ALF]

Hi Tim, I have to agree with your comment, regarding David...“emperor has no clothes ”.

Cheers!
ALF

Please let me make clear my post was not meant to be about David. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

...no disrespect intended Tim; however, I have to respectfully disagree...

Cheers!
ALF

 

[microstrip]

Just for to provide some factual information about Panzerholz (...)

You forgot about the most spectacular application of Panzerholz - neutron shielding!

 

[Tango]

You forgot about the most spectacular application of Panzerholz - neutron shielding!

You should try one. It is cheap and not going to make a single hair fall. If it sucks under your Lamm just throw it out.

And write about how sucks it is showing two sides of the coin.

 

[tima]

Poor Tango; his thread is all messed up now.

Have some Tang people ...

It's bonzo's thread, but the contrast between glasses of Tang and real oranges is quietly refreshing.

 

[ddk]

Just for to provide some factual information about Panzerholz

I visited the factory in Germany where all they manufacture is Panzerholz and nothing else for over 50 years. They are very careful about the manufacture and consistency of the density of each slab. There are about 10 slightly different versions of Panzerholz offered, but they all have a density of 1.4.

The different versions have different layer thickness and they sound different. Taiko has its favourites depending on the application

The largest volume buyers of Panzerholz are manufacturers of large power distribution transformers. When a power distribution transformer has spool pieces made from Panzerholz, the efficiency of the transformer is typically about 6 percent higher than transformers using other spool piece materials. Small amounts of Panzerholz are also used by by some aircraft manufacturers for special applications.

In high end audio we note the following manufacturers are using Panzerholz
- Clearaudio, in some of their turntable bases
- Kaiser Audio, Germany for sections of their loudspeaker enclosures
- Artesania, Spain in some of their latest shelves for their rack systems
- Audio Note UK, for PCB applications, some thing Taiko does as well

The qualities of Panzerholz for it’s intended industry was never in question it’s application as a platform under high end electronics is my concern!

1- Daiza/Panzerholz is a sound KILLER irrespective of the electronics.
2- Daiza isn’t a product it’s a slab of plywood with crop circles carvings and your account of its so called “Developement” was throwing things at the wall and see what sticks.
3- Claims of Daiza as tuned instrument is false, the carved grooves don’t tune this material in any meaningful way. Even if one is willing to go along with this falsehood what is it tuned to and what purpose? This is why I called it Snake Oil.

I heard the Artesania rack and my comments to the system’s owner were in line with my criticism of Panzerholz prior to knowing what the rack was. Thin sound with hardly any micro and macro dynamics.

david

 

[ddk]

You

Please let me make clear my post was not meant to be about David. Thanks.

...no disrespect intended Tim; however, I have to respectfully disagree...

Cheers!
ALF[/QUOTE]

You should leave my naked body alone Alan or you might get poked in the eye !

david

 

[Taiko Audio]

1- Daiza/Panzerholz is a sound KILLER irrespective of the electronics.

By what mechanism do you suggest it can “KILL” sound?

2- Daiza isn’t a product it’s a slab of plywood with crop circles carvings and your account of its so called “Developement” was throwing things at the wall and see what sticks.

Those crop circles are fibonacci progressions to spread out resonance modes, they completely remove modes between 4 and 8KHz. Without this Panzerholz can indeed sound bright and thin, you can guess why.

3- Claims of Daiza as tuned instrument is false, the carved grooves don’t tune this material in any meaningful way. Even if one is willing to go along with this falsehood what is it tuned to and what purpose? This is why I called it Snake Oil.

Answered above.

I heard the Artesania rack and my comments to the system’s owner were in line with my criticism of Panzerholz prior to knowing what the rack was. Thin sound with hardly any micro and macro dynamics.

david

So where did you hear that?

 

[tima]

Guys, it would be cool if this conversation about the use of panzerholz in audio systems could be had in its own thread. Would really like to read it though.

Steve / moderator: is it possible to move these panzerholz posts to a unique thread in the Vibration forum. They will get buried in here. If so I'd be happy to create the thread then step back.

thank you!

 

[bazelio]

You should try one. It is cheap and not going to make a single hair fall. If it sucks under your Lamm just throw it out.

And write about how sucks it is showing two sides of the coin.

I think there's a money back return offer on these too. So I'm willing to try one under my amp as well. I thought that piano never sounded better in your video, Tang. Not sure if solid state amps will benefit to the same degree from the crop circles, but there's only one way to find out.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I think there's a money back return offer on these too. So I'm willing to try one under my amp as well. I thought that piano never sounded better in your video, Tang. Not sure if solid state amps will benefit to the same degree from the crop circles, but there's only one way to find out.

Full refund including all shipping costs and transaction fees, but only on standard sizes, we do not refund custom cut.

 

[Tango]

Please let me make clear my post was not meant to be about David. Thanks.

Cheers!
ALF[/QUOTE]

You just had to stab him from the side every chance you got. Face up and stab him in the heart man.

A friend of David.
Tang

 

[Rhapsody]

The qualities of Panzerholz for it’s intended industry was never in question it’s application as a platform under high end electronics is my concern!

1- Daiza/Panzerholz is a sound KILLER irrespective of the electronics.
2- Daiza isn’t a product it’s a slab of plywood with crop circles carvings and your account of its so called “Developement” was throwing things at the wall and see what sticks.
3- Claims of Daiza as tuned instrument is false, the carved grooves don’t tune this material in any meaningful way. Even if one is willing to go along with this falsehood what is it tuned to and what purpose? This is why I called it Snake Oil.

I heard the Artesania rack and my comments to the system’s owner were in line with my criticism of Panzerholz prior to knowing what the rack was. Thin sound with hardly any micro and macro dynamics.

david

David,

Curious as to where you have heard the Daiza platforms to arrive at your conclusions? Surely you would not voice such a strong opinion on the Diazas without having heard them for yourself, so I am curious to understand more about the system that you heard them in.

I am not asking about an Artesania rack that you reference but more specifically the Daiza platforms.....thx

 

[jeff1225]

You


...no disrespect intended Tim; however, I have to respectfully disagree...

Cheers!
ALF

You should leave my naked body alone Alan or you might get poked in the eye !

david[/QUOTE]

At least you spared his ear David.....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

news flash!

ddk hates tweaks! (unless they are his own).

oh wait. this has been true forever. it's nothing new or attention worthy. sigh. yawn. wake me when it's over.

the 'world' according to David.

nothing personal, i like the guy. we don't need to agree.

 

[Steve Williams]

Guys, it would be cool if this conversation about the use of panzerholz in audio systems could be had in its own thread. Would really like to read it though.

Steve / moderator: is it possible to move these panzerholz posts to a unique thread in the Vibration forum. They will get buried in here. If so I'd be happy to create the thread then step back.

thank you!

I would be happy to move the posts across to the new thread if David or Tim or Emile would like to start the thread

 

[Taiko Audio]

I would be happy to move the posts across to the new thread if David or Tim or Emile would like to start the thread

Honestly I don’t feel it’s worth to waste a thread on.

 

[Steve Williams]

I 'm here to do whatever you all want but Tim is correct that if discussion is to ensue , it should be in its own thread

 

[ALF]

Cheers!
ALF

You just had to stab him from the side every chance you got. Face up and stab him in the heart man.

A friend of David.
Tang[/QUOTE]

Hello Tang

Okay...fair question.

...I think that my comment was very direct and upfront.

David’ s unfounded jealously of competing successful small and large shop audio manufacturers is somewhat evident. Why, who knows; apparently, it is not necessary.

David, while developing his new “Uber” $500k TT he took shots at the Zero and reviewer in the Audio Salon thread... David, no need to thank me for the early announcement.

Emile, a well respected and very helpful designer that had just finished a nicely documented trip this side of the ponds visiting Steve, Mike, and Bob. He has many fans of his electronic kits; so much, he has been capacity constrained for some time. Oh btw, as elsewhere in this thread, the platforms in question come with a full-refund policy... try it, if you like it, super...if not, please return for a refund.

Then there are the arc distortions of the 3012, have you moved onto a linear tracker to protect your pristine vinyl? Me, I passed on this tonearm and waiting patiently for my Vyger...delivery scheduled early next year.

David accusing others of snake oil, simply projective identity, me thinks...

Cheers!
ALF

 

[jeff1225]

You just had to stab him from the side every chance you got. Face up and stab him in the heart man.

A friend of David.
Tang

Hello Tang

Okay...fair question.

...I think that my comment was very direct and upfront.

David’ s unfounded jealously of competing successful small and large shop audio manufacturers is somewhat evident. Why, who knows; apparently, it is not necessary.

David, while developing his new “Uber” $500k TT he took shots at the Zero and reviewer in the Audio Salon thread... David, no need to thank me for the early announcement.

Emile, a well respected and very helpful designer that had just finished a nicely documented trip this side of the ponds visiting Steve, Mike, and Bob. He has many fans of his electronic kits; so much, he has been capacity constrained for some time. Oh btw, as elsewhere in this thread, the platforms in question come with a full-refund policy... try it, if you like it, super...if not, please return for a refund.

Then there are the arc distortions of the 3012, have you moved onto a linear tracker to protect your pristine vinyl? Me, I passed on this tonearm and waiting patiently for my Vyger...delivery scheduled early next year.

David accusing others of snake oil, simply projective identity, me thinks...

Cheers!
ALF[/QUOTE]
If I remember correctly, your last experience with a linear tracking tone arm (Rockport) didn't go so well. I'm surprised that you would go down that road again.

 

[ddk]

By what mechanism do you suggest it can “KILL” sound?

By placing it under equipment as instructed.

Those crop circles are fibonacci progressions to spread out resonance modes, they completely remove modes between 4 and 8KHz. Without this Panzerholz can indeed sound bright and thin, you can guess why.

Fibonacci progressions sound very attractive but in this case it’s still a piece of Plywood with grooves, there’s no magical mystical attribute from the form.

How did you measure these nodes? Under what load? Removed? So what is the new resonant frequency after removal of those other frequencies? Did it even change. To be honest I don’t see the relevance of these frequencies in the end result, the sound is just as bad with or without the crop circles.

Actually the entire premise of taking a piece of plywood that you already know has a negative effect on sound quality of electronics and then claim that by cutting some grooves you magically transformed into something amazingly positive is the definition of Snake Oil!

So where did you hear that?

At a member’s home. He had noticed the thinning effect too.

david