Visit to Zerostargeneral’s Pnoe/Thomas Mayer/VYGER System

zerostargeneral

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Apr 14, 2018
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Dear all in the self congratulatory society,

I feel compelled to share;all visitors wear ear defenders because the sound is so shrill it can really hurt.

There is no jump factor at all Ron,bless him may have mistaken the hydraulic works in my squat for orchestral tympani?

Who knows,Micro may have been enlightened by the Doig and solved Riemann Zeta function?

Kindest regards(wish i had turned it up)G.
 

morricab

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Why should I play them at home? I am watching Alisa Weilerstein twice this month, and Miklos Perenyi (whose recordings on Hungaroton are famous) among others, some in a small hall. I have no desire to listen a live quartet at home, though I have heard some loud music close up and don't like it. I don't do front row seats, I don't do back row, I sit in front half

Never pegged you as someone who would avoid a challenge...afraid I might be right? ;)
 

morricab

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I don't think sound is sound... it's certain types of distortion that does the damage imo... listening to chainsaws and jackhammers at close distances vs a symphony at higher SPLs is not the same thing.

I believe it is probably ok to listen to cleanly reproduced music at higher SPLs than the OSHA chart says is acceptable, but duration has to be taken into account too. It's not often that I'll sit back for a night of playing electronica or rock music at high SPL. ;)

Well, Classical is rarely ever that loud for more than a few seconds at a time...surely not damaging. A chainsaw or jackhammer is rather continuous...as could be some electronica or compressed rock played too loud.
 

morricab

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Why should I play them at home? I am watching Alisa Weilerstein twice this month, and Miklos Perenyi (whose recordings on Hungaroton are famous) among others, some in a small hall. I have no desire to listen a live quartet at home, though I have heard some loud music close up and don't like it. I don't do front row seats, I don't do back row, I sit in front half
Also, nevermind the fact that the way a lot of classical and jazz recordings are made is rather up close...this gives a "they are here" type presentation and it should feel that way. I can imagine General's system does that rather well when the recording is that way (my two single driver systems do this nicely).
 

Mike Lavigne

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as far as humans and SPL's, there is a natural balance of sound all around us, and for music reproduction in the home it's the same thing. music needs to breathe and the SPL's and space have to balance out. home reproduction of a rock concert level sound can work, but that is a real stretch for most home systems all the way around. full force orchestral just slightly less challenging. and you have jazz club horn sort of immediacy too.

listening position relative to the drivers is critical.

it's about balance, and large rooms have more to work with on this; but space alone is not the issue. the speaker has to be able to synergize with that large space or it doesn't work.

from Ron's feedback this is all working in the General's room for the music that was played.
 

morricab

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Thanks Ron!

If the system can play complex music at high volumes cleanly it's a unicorn as far as full range driver based systems go, and I'd be interested to learn how it's possible...

I've heard Lamhorns with AER drivers, among a dozen or so other BLH designs that didn't work quite as well using Feastrex and other drivers... that's the closest to a pnoe I've experienced. None of these systems could do a great job at this.


Agreed, with my Decware and Supravox systems, they are great at moderate volume and/or with simpler music. This is what drove me to my speaker project of integrating a horn mid/tweeter with first the Decware and now the Supravox speakers. Simply going to a two-way design has increased the clarity for complex music enormously, especially as it starts to approach realistic volume levels. Low level and simple stuff still sounds super fast and alive like a good single driver provides.
 

jeff1225

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Had a gathering of music lovers (only a few audiophiles) a few weekends ago and we played nothing but rock. The remaster of AC/DC Back in Black was cranked up to 11, is there any other way to listen to it?
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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as far as humans and SPL's, there is a natural balance of sound all around us, and for music reproduction in the home it's the same thing. music needs to breathe and the SPL's and space have to balance out. home reproduction of a rock concert level sound can work, but that is a real stretch for most home systems all the way around. full force orchestral just slightly less challenging. and you have jazz club horn sort of immediacy too.

listening position relative to the drivers is critical.

it's about balance, and large rooms have more to work with on this; but space alone is not the issue. the speaker has to be able to synergize with that large space or it doesn't work.

from Ron's feedback this is all working in the General's room for the music that was played.

Not if you have a single driver...
 

Al M.

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Why should I play them at home? I am watching Alisa Weilerstein twice this month, and Miklos Perenyi (whose recordings on Hungaroton are famous) among others, some in a small hall. I have no desire to listen a live quartet at home, though I have heard some loud music close up and don't like it. I don't do front row seats, I don't do back row, I sit in front half

I do front row seats. Our different preferences regarding listening to live music would go some way to explain why we perceive "flow" differently. Further back flow is generally 'smoother'.
 
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Ron Resnick

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I don't think those were enough tracks. Ron should have spoken less, not eaten, and heard more. There are so many LPs there and he is not going to come this way often. If anyone visits G in future they should let him DJ the music and not get into conversation

When I meet somebody in person for the first time I like to focus more on the friendship than on the music. Having written this we listened to music together for several hours — more than enough time for me to be very confident about the particulars of my report.
 

Ron Resnick

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You should just hire a string quartet to play one evening in your apartment/home...or even a solo violinist. This will be a REAL eye opener for you...it was for me and totally reshaped my thinking about hifi.

Earlier this year I attended a living room ensemble concert of five musicians. It definitely was interesting to experience and hear the power of unamplified instruments close up. This definitely helps to calibrate our ears to the actual sound of unamplified instruments as a remembered reference against which to judge stereo systems.
 
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bonzo75

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Conventional systems do large scale symphonies by backward layering, separation, and a left to right soundstage, and lots of bass driver movement. Big cones, large apogees, are excellent at it. Mike's is the best at it in this direction because there is virtually no limit to how much the orchestra keeps soaring. Tang's being a horn, is still a multi way, and multi way horns also follow a similar approach.

G's system approaches this very differently. His system is my favorite for large orchestral along with Mike's, and there is no similarity in how both approach It. I have heard many large pieces there, including resurrection, eroica, ode to joy various versions and movements, 5th, new world.

In fact, new world was the first he played to me, first the speakers corner reissue, then the first edition. After that he slaughtered the Fone Mahler 2 I had brought along with me with an original (that, iirc, was not EQed while recording).

What happens when you play orchestral at his place, you can experience only at his place. My previous experience, and later, with hifi systems did not prepare me for it. Let's just say each section and instrument of the orchestra breathes in purity, and by tonal differences, separation is created. It is very different from a multi way. And I can imagine most who try this approach with lesser drivers, lesser electronics, and/or lesser recordings will fail at it. Which is why we don't get to experience it in normal recordings systems.

Many of his LPs also were recorded with no limiters, so they have amazing dynamics during the soar, the low to high. Some of these LPs have grooves made by hand to adjust for the dynamics per groove. So it is unfettered.
 
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bonzo75

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I do front row seats. Our different preferences regarding listening to live music would go some way to explain why we perceive "flow" differently. Further back flow is generally 'smoother'.

No
 

Al M.

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DaveC

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Conventional systems do large scale symphonies by backward layering, separation, and a left to right soundstage, and lots of bass driver movement. Big cones, large apogees, are excellent at it. Mike's is the best at it in this direction because there is virtually no limit to how much the orchestra keeps soaring. Tang's being a horn, is still a multi way, and multi way horns also follow a similar approach.

G's system approaches this very differently. His system is my favorite for large orchestral along with Mike's, and there is no similarity in how both approach It. I have heard many large pieces there, including resurrection, erotica, ode to joy various versions and movements, 5th, new world.

In fact, new world was the first he played to me, first the speakers corner reissue, then the first edition. After that he slaughtered the Fone Mahler 2 I had brought along with me with an original (that, iirc, was not EQed while recording).

What happens when you play orchestral at his place, you can experience only at his place. My previous experience, and later, with hifi systems did not prepare me for it. Let's just say each section and instrument of the orchestra breathes in purity, and by tonal differences, separation is created. It is very different from a multi way. And I can imagine most who try this approach with lesser drivers, lesser electronics, and/or lesser recordings will fail at it. Which is why we don't get to experience it in normal recordings systems.

Many of his LPs also were recorded with no limiters, so they have amazing dynamics during the soar, the low to high. Some of these LPs have grooves made by hand to adjust for the dynamics per groove. So it is unfettered.


Thanks... I'm interested in this because I want to improve my own speaker, which is a single driver in a horn as well. My single driver falls off sharply at 400 Hz due to the size of the horn and excursion is also limited with a single cap xo at 400 Hz. My speaker is only ok at complex music despite the full range driver being alleviated of a great majority of low frequency information.

How much of this exactly is the electronics vs speaker and room is kinda hard to say...

You've also said the newer AER BD5 is a significant leap over the BD3, which I've owned... and the tube gear is also a level of design above what I have put together as well, I do have a few resistors and a couple caps in the signal path, not that it's the end of the world, but it is a simpler and much less expensive design vs the Mayer gear.

Do you attribute the symphonic excellence to any particular aspect of the system? Can it do the same with a BD3 driver?
 
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microstrip

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You two are creating so much white noise. Nothing that you two forced on this thread was relevant here. Do you also want to discuss measurements and digital vs analog while we are at it

This thread was started by Ron, and some of us are interested in the objective conditions that make him write "“The closest to live music I have ever heard” is my considered conclusion about jazz, solo instruments and ensembles and, in some ways, classical symphony orchestra, reproduced on the unique vinyl/horn/single-ended triode system of zerostargeneral." and have interest in debating it, particularly considering his previous experience and opinions.

Although digital vs analog does not seem to be relevant in this thread, IMHO loudness and probably bandwidth are.

Apologies if you dislike my views, please feel free to ignore them. I am always happy to debate the contents of the messages, as long as they address audio matters, not the posters.
 

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