Visit to Zerostargeneral’s Pnoe/Thomas Mayer/VYGER System

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, still curious as to what SPLs you listened at?

Did you listen to symphonic music at realistic levels?

I think we did. I listen pretty loudly.

 

[morricab]

It just shows how highly regarded your room is for people in this forum Mike.

What I want to know is if the General was wearing a bathrobe and shorts walking with socks in the room.

Tang

Why bother with shorts when you got the bathrobe...

 

[zerostargeneral]

Dear Tang,

Your humour is laser accurate when describing my foibles.

For the purpose of receiving the forum Akela I managed to muster a sweater and shoes for most of the time.

The recordings played were all standard press,no test pressings at all.

Nic Jones-Penguin Eggs

Art Blakey-Moanin'

Paul Simon-Graceland

George Szell-Beethoven ninth

Paul Gonsalves-Boom Chacky Boom Chick

Bill Withers-Just as I am

Heimo Hatto-Bach Chacconne

Janos Starker-Kodaly cello sonata

Chris Connor-Angel Eyes

Mahalia Jackson-Motherless Child

Maria Carey-I Want to know what love is

All of the above played at around 100db at the seating position.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[cjfrbw]

Why bother with shorts when you got the bathrobe...

Why bother with the bathrobe when you have huge horns to flap your willy.

 

[108CY]

Ron kindly bought forward this thread showing another perspective on producing a system and achieving an alternative presentation. This was done rather well and should be taken in good cheer weather one agrees or disagrees is of no relevance. There are many wonderful systems out there and we will all have our ultimate preferences life would be rather boring if we all had the same goals.

As the old adjective goes, there are many ways to swing a cat(not that i condone such behaviour), this is just one of successful ways in achieving that desired goal, and for some it goes against the norm as it is so easy to get locked into one school of thought. It is easy to rubbish others success, for me I would rather sit back and appreciate each ones most wonderful achievements. Such achievements this can only be applauded, even if they might not be what I am ultimately looking for and goes against my pre conceived ideas. For a lot of us we have performed many many sacrifices and also made many costly mistakes if one looks at them as mistakes to get to where we are today.

 

[bonzo75]

Dear Tang,

Your humour is laser accurate when describing my foibles.

For the purpose of receiving the forum Akela I managed to muster a sweater and shoes for most of the time.

The recordings played were all standard press,no test pressings at all.

Nic Jones-Penguin Eggs

Art Blakey-Moanin'

Paul Simon-Graceland

George Szell-Beethoven ninth

Paul Gonsalves-Boom Chacky Boom Chick

Bill Withers-Just as I am

Heimo Hatto-Bach Chacconne

Janos Starker-Kodaly cello sonata

Chris Connor-Angel Eyes

Mahalia Jackson-Motherless Child

Maria Carey-I Want to know what love is

All of the above played at around 100db at the seating position.

Kindest regards,G.

I haven't heard the Szell 9th but the test press of the 5th was one of the best LPs I have heard at G's place. It made the first edition sound like a bad CD.

Regarding the Haitto chaconne, this is what I wrote in my report:

" But Martzy’s performance is nowhere the best, though priced so high. The General later played us a rare edition of Chaconne, which is the best violin I have heard at his place. In fact, that haunted me so much, that for the next few mornings, I would wake up and play Chaconne on my mobile in bed…one of those things that began to play in my mind the first thing I woke up. In fact, one day at work I walked down, went to a quiet corner of the road, and played Chaconne to put myself as ease. After much deliberation, I decided to buy it from him"

 

[Tango]

Dear Tang,

Your humour is laser accurate when describing my foibles.

For the purpose of receiving the forum Akela I managed to muster a sweater and shoes for most of the time.

The recordings played were all standard press,no test pressings at all.

Nic Jones-Penguin Eggs

Art Blakey-Moanin'

Paul Simon-Graceland

George Szell-Beethoven ninth

Paul Gonsalves-Boom Chacky Boom Chick

Bill Withers-Just as I am

Heimo Hatto-Bach Chacconne

Janos Starker-Kodaly cello sonata

Chris Connor-Angel Eyes

Mahalia Jackson-Motherless Child

Maria Carey-I Want to know what love is

All of the above played at around 100db at the seating position.

Kindest regards,G.

I am trying to hold my giggle sir.

That Hatto's Chaconne is just mad.


Tang

 

[the sound of Tao]

Dear Tang,

Your humour is laser accurate when describing my foibles.

For the purpose of receiving the forum Akela I managed to muster a sweater and shoes for most of the time.

The recordings played were all standard press,no test pressings at all.

Nic Jones-Penguin Eggs

Art Blakey-Moanin'

Paul Simon-Graceland

George Szell-Beethoven ninth

Paul Gonsalves-Boom Chacky Boom Chick

Bill Withers-Just as I am

Heimo Hatto-Bach Chacconne

Janos Starker-Kodaly cello sonata

Chris Connor-Angel Eyes

Mahalia Jackson-Motherless Child

Maria Carey-I Want to know what love is

All of the above played at around 100db at the seating position.

Kindest regards,G.

I am fairly folk ignorant (or was just that plain ignorant??) but am very much enjoying the Nic Jones and Penguin Eggs. Quite a feast. Thank you.
Cheers
Tao

 

[bonzo75]

I don't think those were enough tracks. Ron should have spoken less, not eaten, and heard more. There are so many LPs there and he is not going to come this way often. If anyone visits G in future they should let him DJ the music and not get into conversation

 

[audioquattr]

Excellent report Ron!
I am a bit jealous how you find so easy the right words to descripe so accurate and still
entertaining about this great system from a great man.
Well done both!

Ron kindly bought forward this thread showing another perspective on producing a system and achieving an alternative presentation. This was done rather well and should be taken in good cheer weather one agrees or disagrees is of no relevance. There are many wonderful systems out there and we will all have our ultimate preferences life would be rather boring if we all had the same goals.

As the old adjective goes, there are many ways to swing a cat(not that i condone such behaviour), this is just one of successful ways in achieving that desired goal, and for some it goes against the norm as it is so easy to get locked into one school of thought. It is easy to rubbish others success, for me I would rather sit back and appreciate all each ones wonderful achievements even if they might not be what I am ultimately looking for and goes against my pre conceived ideas.

+1
Also very well said.

 

[microstrip]

Sorry, Francisco, why not getting what?

The exact copy of the PNOE based system ...

I think we did. I listen pretty loudly.

Surely it will play at 100 dB levels better than any electrostatic. Now that Zerostargeneral kindly posted the list of recordings and the sound levels we can get a better idea of your experience. IMHO such session is not comparable with others you reported - did you listen systematically all the time at 100 dB in Steve or Mike systems?

Peter McGrath warned us and played the WAMMs at such levels just during five minutes, only at the end of a session - as he said, for the fun of it. It was a real experience - at such level there is a lot more information than at more common listening levels. But according to many people you are risking permanent damage to your ears listening for long times at 100 dB.

We often refer that difference levels of around 1 dB are enough to foul our comparisons and our perception of sound quality. IMHO our typical listening levels should be described as one of the mains characteristics of our particular sound reproduction objectives. One of the objectives of the sound reproduction industry is to compensate for the difference between typical realistic sound levels and those we listen in our home systems - I love going to a jazz club and sometimes enjoy being close to the performers. But it is not definitively the sound level I listen to jazz recordings.

And yes, I have often sinned for short times - Graceland or Shostakovitch finales are fabulous at 105 dB!

IMHO most of our gear preferences have simple technical reasons behind them, not just the magic.

 

[bonzo75]

Did anyone else on this thread interpret G's post that they played continuously at 100 db?

 

[microstrip]

Did anyone else on this thread interpret G's post that they played continuously at 100 db?

I hope no one did, they were not listening to pink or white noise. But I would be happy if anyone having more exact details could post exact numbers with adequate qualifiers.

Anyway Ron is the only person who can enlighten us on the other key aspects of the sessions relative loudness.

 

[morricab]

I haven't heard the Szell 9th but the test press of the 5th was one of the best LPs I have heard at G's place. It made the first edition sound like a bad CD.

Regarding the Haitto chaconne, this is what I wrote in my report:

" But Martzy’s performance is nowhere the best, though priced so high. The General later played us a rare edition of Chaconne, which is the best violin I have heard at his place. In fact, that haunted me so much, that for the next few mornings, I would wake up and play Chaconne on my mobile in bed…one of those things that began to play in my mind the first thing I woke up. In fact, one day at work I walked down, went to a quiet corner of the road, and played Chaconne to put myself as ease. After much deliberation, I decided to buy it from him"

You should just hire a string quartet to play one evening in your apartment/home...or even a solo violinist. This will be a REAL eye opener for you...it was for me and totally reshaped my thinking about hifi.

 

[jackelsson]

Sitting here in my small listening room enjoying some digitally streamed Beethoven piano sonatas over transistor amp driven cone speakers I’m reading through this entertaining thread which I only just have discovered.

I’m tempted to mention that for me also Rage Against The Machine and Leftfield, which the General kindly played to me at rather realistic sound levels, worked very well on the Pnoes. Even if this system and loudspeakers might not be the very last word in regard to bottom end extension with electronical music, for me this was nevertheless one of the best and most realistic systems I have ever had the pleasure to hear. With both, the General’s amazing jazz and classical recording gems as well as with some distinctly non-audiophile music. This was certainly a rather enlightening experience for me and I'm still thankful to the General for this.

Thanks Ron for this delightful report on the General’s amazing system.

 

[Al M.]

The exact copy of the PNOE based system ...



Surely it will play at 100 dB levels better than any electrostatic. Now that Zerostargeneral kindly posted the list of recordings and the sound levels we can get a better idea of your experience. IMHO such session is not comparable with others you reported - did you listen systematically all the time at 100 dB in Steve or Mike systems?

Peter McGrath warned us and played the WAMMs at such levels just during five minutes, only at the end of a session - as he said, for the fun of it. It was a real experience - at such level there is a lot more information than at more common listening levels. But according to many people you are risking permanent damage to your ears listening for long times at 100 dB.

We often refer that difference levels of around 1 dB are enough to foul our comparisons and our perception of sound quality. IMHO our typical listening levels should be described as one of the mains characteristics of our particular sound reproduction objectives. One of the objectives of the sound reproduction industry is to compensate for the difference between typical realistic sound levels and those we listen in our home systems - I love going to a jazz club and sometimes enjoy being close to the performers. But it is not definitively the sound level I listen to jazz recordings.

And yes, I have often sinned for short times - Graceland or Shostakovitch finales are fabulous at 105 dB!

IMHO most of our gear preferences have simple technical reasons behind them, not just the magic.

Spot on, Francisco. Constant high levels damage your ears, and listening more loudly to a system can indeed evoke the impression that it is "faster", has a "greater jump factor" etc.

And yes, I have often fooled myself into thinking, oh this sounds so good with this new change in the system, until I realized that I had my volume set just this little bit louder on the occasion, which gave palpably more excitement and perceived jump factor.

Someone on this forum once joked that components have been bought just based on lack of exact volume matching alone, and he might have a point...

 

[DaveC]

I don't think sound is sound... it's certain types of distortion that does the damage imo... listening to chainsaws and jackhammers at close distances vs a symphony at higher SPLs is not the same thing.

I believe it is probably ok to listen to cleanly reproduced music at higher SPLs than the OSHA chart says is acceptable, but duration has to be taken into account too. It's not often that I'll sit back for a night of playing electronica or rock music at high SPL.

 

[bonzo75]

You should just hire a string quartet to play one evening in your apartment/home...or even a solo violinist. This will be a REAL eye opener for you...it was for me and totally reshaped my thinking about hifi.

Why should I play them at home? I am watching Alisa Weilerstein twice this month, and Miklos Perenyi (whose recordings on Hungaroton are famous) among others, some in a small hall. I have no desire to listen a live quartet at home, though I have heard some loud music close up and don't like it. I don't do front row seats, I don't do back row, I sit in front half

 

[bonzo75]

Spot on, Francisco. Constant high levels damage your ears, and listening more loudly to a system can indeed evoke the impression that it is "faster", has a "greater jump factor" etc.

And yes, I have often fooled myself into thinking, oh this sounds so good with this new change in the system, until I realized that I had my volume set just this little bit louder on the occasion, which gave palpably more excitement and perceived jump factor.

Someone on this forum once joked that components have been bought just based on lack of exact volume matching alone, and he might have a point...

You two are creating so much white noise. Nothing that you two forced on this thread was relevant here. Do you also want to discuss measurements and digital vs analog while we are at it

 

[DaveC]

I think we did. I listen pretty loudly.

Thanks Ron!

If the system can play complex music at high volumes cleanly it's a unicorn as far as full range driver based systems go, and I'd be interested to learn how it's possible...

I've heard Lamhorns with AER drivers, among a dozen or so other BLH designs that didn't work quite as well using Feastrex and other drivers... that's the closest to a pnoe I've experienced. None of these systems could do a great job at this.