Visit to Zerostargeneral’s Pnoe/Thomas Mayer/VYGER System

[bonzo75]

Bill, I'll disagree w you
Nah nah na nah nah Lol

You did say the system was liquid, but isn't it too early in the evening for your...er... liquid?

 

[morricab]

I personally think all have good ears, but have been misled over years. When I got into audiophilia, I had no idea of Stockfisch and Dina Krall. Dealers got me to listen to it and taught me to evaluate this way. That was so unnatural yet I did it, at shows people did it, the attributes it evaluated on. And when we listen to the same thing daily, all our evaluations are based with that sound template in mind. It took me 6 months after selling off my speakers to reset, along with live exposure. It takes that much time for live shows to erase and replace the sound memory of sh**y audiophile music. And both Bill and I ran into the same surprise in the Munich Silbatone room and G's room. Spend a day at Munich in the Silbatone room and see what they play, and what other rooms play. When people realize it, they shift back. That's why Bill traded all his gear in and switched. It was not that he had good ears one day and bad the next, and good again, it is just that this industry has evolved to mislead many, and G believes in spreading the goodness of music, something that many of the commercial dealers could learn from.

I personally think most do not have good ears...maybe I am being a pessimist but... For sure there are some whose ears are "mistrained" shall we say but a far larger number simply don't have the "realization" when they hear something that is truly a step closer to the real thing. There are a far larger number of people who go into the Silbatone room, say "ooh ahh", and then return home to a system that doesn't have 1/10th the realism and are perfectly happy going back to talking about "resolution, speed, transparency"...etc. and not seriously considering the lack of realism they went back to. An even larger number will wrinkle their noses and not even "get" what that nutty Korean guy is doing. Bill was one of those who heard and "got it" and it transformed his way of listening oriented towards greater realism...at least based on the choices I see he has made.

 

[microstrip]

(...) So yes, with a decent room size, the system can be copied. You will need some of those recordings though. And preference and costs aside, many horn systems can be copied. If you copy Tang's system, you will get a similar sound provided you have a decent size. But if you copy an excellent Dagostino - cone/planar system, room will play lots of issues.

I think that the key is in your words "record selection". For such systems you expertely select the recordings to sound great in them and then you are rewarded with great experiences.

In a excellent D'Agostino - cone/planar system type, the room will play lots of issues but once the system is tuned I listen to the music I enjoyed yesterday, today and will enjoy tomorrow, not to .01% of the existing recordings of the past. Just MHO, YMMV.

 

[DaveC]

I haven't heard either system but I can imagine the General's system being less dependent on all the room treatment than Mikes.

There's that, it's more directional, but the size also means that, while the decay times may be longer than ideal, the time of arrival of those reflections are far less problematic vs a smaller room.

 

[bonzo75]

I think that the key is in your words "record selection". For such systems you expertely select the recordings to sound great in them and then you are rewarded with great experiences.

In a excellent D'Agostino - cone/planar system type, the room will play lots of issues but once the system is tuned I listen to the music I enjoyed yesterday, today and will enjoy tomorrow, not to .01% of the existing recordings of the past. Just MHO, YMMV.

A slight difference. He goes recordings first, and then selects the system that portrays then the best. These are the best performances by the best engineers, and we are listening to performance after performance at his place at its best.

I don't disagree it may not sound good for reissues or tidal streaming

 

[DaveC]

I personally think all have good ears, but have been misled over years. When I got into audiophilia, I had no idea of Stockfisch and Dina Krall. Dealers got me to listen to it and taught me to evaluate this way. That was so unnatural yet I did it, at shows people did it, the attributes it evaluated on. And when we listen to the same thing daily, all our evaluations are based with that sound template in mind. It took me 6 months after selling off my speakers to reset, along with live exposure. It takes that much time for live shows to erase and replace the sound memory of sh**y audiophile music. And both Bill and I ran into the same surprise in the Munich Silbatone room and G's room. Spend a day at Munich in the Silbatone room and see what they play, and what other rooms play. When people realize it, they shift back. That's why Bill traded all his gear in and switched. It was not that he had good ears one day and bad the next, and good again, it is just that this industry has evolved to mislead many, and G believes in spreading the goodness of music, something that many of the commercial dealers could learn from.

I see nothing wrong with enjoying all types of music.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill, I'll disagree w you
Nah nah na nah nah Lol

Why is Mike's system anymore special or optimised?
Mike and The General have equal priority and specialism of components
The fact Mike may have spent more signifies that his choices are just pricier, not better.

The only genuine difference is the effort/expense spent on the room itself, and maybe power sent to it, via Mike's EquiTech.

If we're truly saying Mike's system only excels because of his slavish devotion to building that room, are we saying it would be way poorer in a bog standard room w no atrention to acoustic detail?

I’ll try again.

“Why is Mike’s system anymore special or optimised?”

>> Anymore special or optimised than what? Mike’s room is far more optimised than the General’s room. One is a custom designed frigging listening den designed by pros and the other has zero room treatment! It is just a nice big Georgian room.

>> Price of components has nothing to do with any of this discussion. There is no need to mention price of gear.

>> You are the only person who is saying Mike’s system only excels due to the room.
Mike’s system sounds state of the art (by all accounts) due a a combination of room and gear.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I haven't heard either system but I can imagine the General's system being less dependent on all the room treatment than Mikes.

Yes for sure as long as it is big enough to physically house the Pnoes.

 

[microstrip]

I personally think all have good ears, but have been misled over years. When I got into audiophilia, I had no idea of Stockfisch and Dina Krall. Dealers got me to listen to it and taught me to evaluate this way. That was so unnatural yet I did it, at shows people did it, the attributes it evaluated on. And when we listen to the same thing daily, all our evaluations are based with that sound template in mind. It took me 6 months after selling off my speakers to reset, along with live exposure. It takes that much time for live shows to erase and replace the sound memory of sh**y audiophile music. And both Bill and I ran into the same surprise in the Munich Silbatone room and G's room. Spend a day at Munich in the Silbatone room and see what they play, and what other rooms play. When people realize it, they shift back. That's why Bill traded all his gear in and switched. It was not that he had good ears one day and bad the next, and good again, it is just that this industry has evolved to mislead many, and G believes in spreading the goodness of music, something that many of the commercial dealers could learn from.

The argument that we have been misled for long years and then found the light never gave me any enthusiasm. What you describe is just training to create a preference - surely a valid way to enjoy music. I have read exactly the same type of arguments promoting Sean Olive methods, but they also did not enthusiasm me.

Good ears and training can not be separated, but are not the same thing - and preference rules over them.

 

[microstrip]

A slight difference. He goes recordings first, and then selects the system that portrays then the best. These are the best performances by the best engineers, and we are listening to performance after performance at his place at its best.

I don't disagree it may not sound good for reissues or tidal streaming

The best performances by the best engineers according to a few people that praise them highly and love listening to them - always happy to know about them. But my main music interests are elsewhere, I would risk that those of most of our members are also less confined.

Thanks for the clarifying sentence about streaming - it says more than anything else. I would never buy a system that can not sound good on streaming, but we are moving out of Ron's OP intentions. But I risk to disagree - I hope that such systems can sound good on streaming.

 

[bonzo75]

The best performances by the best engineers according to a few people that praise them highly and love listening to them - always happy to know about them. But my main music interests are elsewhere, I would risk that those of most of our members are also less confined.

Thanks for the clarifying sentence about streaming - it says more than anything else. I would never buy a system that can not sound good on streaming, but we are moving out of Ron's OP intentions. But I risk to disagree - I hope that such systems can sound good on streaming.

I don't doubt that many members are less concerned about the performances, and that from my point of view is an unfortunate thing.

Personally, I agree that we should all stop buying original LPs and move to streaming.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I’ll try again.

“Why is Mike’s system anymore special or optimised?”

>> Anymore special or optimised than what? Mike’s room is far more optimised than the General’s room. One is a custom designed frigging listening den designed by pros and the other has zero room treatment! It is just a nice big Georgian room.

>> Price of components has nothing to do with any of this discussion. There is no need to mention price of gear.

>> You are the only person who is saying Mike’s system only excels due to the room.
Mike’s system sounds state of the art (by all accounts) due a a combination of room and gear.

So Bill, I'm only extrapolating from statements of Ked re Mike's system, where he is resolutely unimpressed by 99.99% of big cones/big SS systems, and yet his visit to Seattle has established Mike's big cones/big SS system in his top 5.

Transplant Mike's system to The General's room, or The General's system to Mike's room, how would things change?

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't doubt that many members are less concerned about the performances, and that from my point of view is an unfortunate thing.

Personally, I agree that we should all stop buying original LPs and move to streaming.

Ergo lp prices plummet, and Ked is a happy camper. Fat chance.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

So Bill, I'm only extrapolating from statements of Ked re Mike's system, where he is resolutely unimpressed by 99.99% of big cones/big SS systems, and yet his visit to Seattle has established Mike's big cones/big SS system in his top 5.

Transplant Mike's system to The General's room, or The General's system to Mike's room, how would things change?

I would think the MM7 would not like that room *without* some bass traps. This is just a guess but i suspected an educated one being that the towers go into sub 10hz territory with authority.

As to how Pnoes would behave in Mike’s - I suspect it would work very well as it is a large volume room with good treatment.

Caveat: There are just guesses - I never like to be black and white about such speculation of course. One needs to try these things.

 

[PeterA]

I think the key reason for this is having such good music and records he has excellent listening points and frankly if you stick to the basics of look out for what is good on piano, violin, then orchestra and jazz, you can't go wrong. His listening and system build comes out of simplifying rather than complicating.

Sage advice, Kedar.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

not a competition. it's a journey. this is not about my room.

i think the General has found a way to get the system out of the way of the music, which then allows great media to strut it's stuff. and that magic comes from the best possible recordings. with his VYGER and supreme vinyl choices there is no lid on where the music can go.

i agree that panels and horns are less room dependent than cones; but that all three can get you all the way there. cones needing more effort to do it.

and when asked where putting together a system starts; i always say (1) get a speaker that synergies properly in scale and energy with the room, and (2) supply it with appropriate amplification. and if it's a big room and you were able to get this part right then it's going to be fun. the upside is really up.

i loved Ron's write-up and congratulate the General for having such a system to result in that.

what we have in common is unlimited passion to enjoy the music and our systems.

added note; with horns it might be that adding any sort of acoustic treatment might not matter.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . As I told Ron today while he was putting ice in his English breakfast tea (yes he does that) . . .

As you are for some reason pruriently interested in my tea procedure I will reveal my tea preferences. I like my English Breakfast tea very strong. I place two full teabags in a single mug.

I also like to drink my tea promptly rather than waiting many minutes for it to cool off. By virtue of my aforementioned strong tea concentration I afford myself the flexibility to deposit a reverse osmosis water prepared ice cube in my tea to cool it off rapidly, without excessive dilution.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, this hobby is equal part Sado (bank balance, friendly fire on partners) and Masochistic (I cannot BELIEVE i bought that POS!).

Not if you do it thoughtfully and rationally with proper auditioning and self-education.

 

[spiritofmusic]

As we say in the UK, "having your tea and drinking it".

 

[spiritofmusic]

Not if you do it thoughtfully and rationally with proper auditioning and self-education.

So, you'll have ZERO buyer's regret after hearing Vyger, Mayer and Pnoes, and look at yr packing crates storing AS and Pendragons?