SAT carbon fibre tone arm from Sweden

[Kingsrule]

And Theta a was a so so brand. Basically a nobody. Why? Sounded like crap....

 

[Solypsa]

Actually, the markup would be 100%

Cheers!
ALF

Not as common as you may think...

...and that's also not to say that direct sellers are offering public what would have been a distributor plus dealer price because they are handling the sales and service.

 

[Al M.]

And Theta a was a so so brand. Basically a nobody. Why? Sounded like crap....

Hehe.

 

[Tango]

Is SAT sold direct or via dealers ?

Via dealers. SAT has tough pricing for both dealer and end users. High price is ok with me. Everyone must make some money. But extreme pricing is just a good laugh .

Tang

 

[DaveyF]

Via dealers. SAT has tough pricing for both dealer and end users. High price is ok with me. Everyone must make some money. But extreme pricing is just a good laugh .


Tang

Tang, your extreme pricing could be pocket change to others! That is what has driven the pricing structure of many retailers and manufacturers for years.
OTOH, I always suspect that if one can bring out an excellent product ( and I am pretty sure that the SAT is indeed excellent) then a pricing structure that would open up the product to a much larger audience should insure far more sales. Unfortunately, in our hobby, I happen to know that there are numerous dealers who contribute to the marketing strategies of the manufacturers. These dealers are usually only conscious of what their local market will accept...and not what the global market will accept....leading to a pricing structure that is ok for some locations and completely wrong for the majority of others. This scenario leads to a fundamental marketing error that has cost numerous manufacturers immense amounts of revenue.

 

[Al M.]

Unfortunately, in our hobby, I happen to know that there are numerous dealers who contribute to the marketing strategies of the manufacturers. These dealers are usually only conscious of what their local market will accept...and not what the global market will accept....leading to a pricing structure that is ok for some locations and completely wrong for the majority of others. This scenario leads to a fundamental marketing error that has cost numerous manufacturers immense amounts of revenue.

Well, it's a free market economy, supply and demand and all that jazz. Mistakes are allowed, and mistakes are made. Human nature. Overall the system gives the best results, even though along the way some individuals get hurt. If the manufacturers lose money it's often their own fault. Don't be naive and don't listen to the wrong people.

 

[Halcro]

Thanks for posting this - I was just starting to write up this post so will add to your comments here as I think they dovetail with this discussion.

What I find interesting is that folks here who throw disparaging comments about the pricing of these arms don't consider that:

a) there are significant engineering and prototyping costs associated with developing such leading edge products and for small companies who's volumes will not be very high, these costs have to be amortized over each unit sold. Imagine if it takes two or more years of engineering to develop such an arm - you have to pay your staff and for your tools and test equipment. You will also need to build several prototypes along the way and even if the materials and assembly costs are marked up significantly in the final product, the costs of manufacturing a dozen or so prototypes is substantial (also manufacturing in prototype quantities is usually much more expensive than the final manufacturing process and the economies of scale that affords).

b) these arms are largely hand made and hand aligned - from the carbon fiber to the final assembly, these are labor intensive and not just any labor but highly skilled labor throughout the entire process.

b) if you have a unique and differentiated product, that IP has value for which the vendor can (rightly) extract a premium.

c) all free market transactions involve a willing seller and a willing buyer - if either of these conditions don't exist, then no transactions take place.

The gist of the above is that the cost of a component is more than just the cost of the materials - that's especially true of low volume, highly engineered products. As an engineer, my time is worth something and reducing my work to just the cost of materials is frankly ignorant of my contributions and ignorant of all of the factors it takes to achieve something of this sort.


Cheers, Joe

You think we don't know this....?
So all of the above only applies to Marc Gomez and SAT.....?
It doesn't apply to all the other specialist, esoteric arm designers and manufacturers equally?
Micha Huber expended nowhere near the design-development time and prototyping for his Simplicity tonearms which sell for fractions of the SAT...?
Continuum Audio with their team of University trained specialists and computer-churning testing for their Cobra and Copperhead tonearms, expended far less time and energy than Marc Gomez and his helper did at SAT...?
And Dynavector with their revolutionary DV-505/501/507 tonearms and their massive overheads and rents expended nothing in their design and development processes compared to the backyard-garage-occupying Marc Gomez...?
Puleeze give us a break.....
We are comparing apples with apples and the inflated prices of these SAT tonearms are relative to all the high-end tonearm designs available today.

And while you're at it......you might realise that 95% of the design/development for SAT occurred 10 years ago with his original arm.
These new arms are simply building on the basis of all the previous design-development with the benefit of cost-cutting hindsight and structured testing against production tonearms.

Wake up and smell the roses....

 

[DaveyF]

Well, it's a free market economy, supply and demand and all that jazz. Mistakes are allowed, and mistakes are made. Human nature. Overall the system gives the best results, even though along the way some individuals get hurt. If the manufacturers lose money it's often their own fault. Don't be naive and don't listen to the wrong people.

Unfortunately, it would seem that right now there are a lot of people in the audio industry that are looking to make a quick buck...and if that happens to involve fleecing people along the way, well what’s a little fleecing. Some may say that sheep deserved to be fleeced. Problem is that I am of the opinion that this is a very unhealthy thing for the industry as a whole. How are we supposed to attract new and younger a’philes into the hobby if the general public looks at the hobby with such a jaundiced eye?

 

[Al M.]

Unfortunately, it would seem that right now there are a lot of people in the audio industry that are looking to make a quick buck...and if that happens to involve fleecing people along the way, well what’s a little fleecing. Some may say that sheep deserved to be fleeced. Problem is that I am of the opinion that this is a very unhealthy thing for the industry as a whole. How are we supposed to attract new and younger a’philes into the hobby if the general public looks at the hobby with such a jaundiced eye?

I agree, and aah yes, economic short-term thinking. Wall Street has also done a lot of damage in this respect. The company I work for is fortunately in private hands, and does not trade publicly. Otherwise we would be at the whim of investors who breathlessly are after the numbers for just the most recent quarter. Being private allows our company to develop strategic long-term thinking, with significant investment in research and development at the expense of short-sighted short-term profit. And it works: our company has grown 20-fold during the past 20 years. Not too bad I'd say.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My tt/arm designer literally evolved his final designs over a decade-long process at home on the work bench and kitchen table, and passed none of the r&d costs on to the consumer re final price in any meaningful way.
His rig was a labour of love, first and foremost as a personal project, but then had wanted to share his epiphanies w like minded analog fans.
Undoubtedly had he tried to recoup his costs, make a decent (but not extortionate) return, and cover additional costs of marketing/middlemen/some extra salesworthy bliniginess, he'd have sold it all 5x the price.
And had it got the positive reviews it most certainly would have done, he would have shifted units.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And before anyone states the obvious, yes I realise my analog guy and Marc Gomez are in totally different leagues.
But I'm sure one thing they have in common is that kitchen table and the dilemma on how to pitch the final price.

 

[Halcro]

And before anyone states the obvious, yes I realise my analog guy and Marc Gomez are in totally different leagues.
But I'm sure one thing they have in common is that kitchen table and the dilemma on how to pitch the final price.

Why do you think they're in totally different leagues?
I don't......

 

[spiritofmusic]

Henry, I'm only assuming, but certainly my tt and arm are not at the level of fit and finish that would generate SAT type price tags.
Outright performance comparisons, well I guess we'll never know.

 

[Halcro]

Henry, I'm only assuming, but certainly my tt and arm are not at the level of fit and finish that would generate SAT type price tags.
Outright performance comparisons, well I guess we'll never know.

But mountainjoe just told us that the high prices of the SAT arms were more to do with design, development and prototyping than the actual cost of the materials employed......
Every tonearm designer is attempting to create the best product he can at a certain price point and thus is in “the same league” IMO.....
That’s not to say they are all equally capable.....

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Henry, if Vic the designer of my Trans Fi Terminator air arm charged for his hundreds of hours of prototyping and developing, the cost would be a lot higher.
As it is, he in effect sold it at cost of materials and minimal profit mark up.
Then again, he had a day job to keep the wolves from the door.

 

[XV-1]

Well Henry, if Vic the designer of my Trans Fi Terminator air arm charged for his hundreds of hours of prototyping and developing, the cost would be a lot higher.
As it is, he in effect sold it at cost of materials and minimal profit mark up.
Then again, he had a day job to keep the wolves from the door.

Marc, the sad reality is, if the Trans-fi designer added a zero to his price, no doubt it would be viewed in a completely different light.

 

[PeterA]

My tt/arm designer literally evolved his final designs over a decade-long process at home on the work bench and kitchen table, and passed none of the r&d costs on to the consumer re final price in any meaningful way.
His rig was a labour of love, first and foremost as a personal project, but then had wanted to share his epiphanies w like minded analog fans.
Undoubtedly had he tried to recoup his costs, make a decent (but not extortionate) return, and cover additional costs of marketing/middlemen/some extra salesworthy bliniginess, he'd have sold it all 5x the price.
And had it got the positive reviews it most certainly would have done, he would have shifted units.

Are there positive reviews out there of your arm Marc? If so, that's great. If not, why not?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Are there positive reviews out there of your arm Marc? If so, that's great. If not, why not?

while there is no downside to positive reviews, there is absolutely no evidence of a problem with the lack of positive reviews. zero feedback does not prove a negative. these days public anointing is not linear.

I think we need to be open to what any product might be able to do. i'm sure the SAT is a fantastic tonearm, based on my listening briefly a few times at shows and all the other reviews and feedback. but nothing is preventing other tonearms from competing on that same level. I think we all hope that happens......maybe at more accessible price points.

and just because the SAT has one cost marketing equation, does not infer that that level of performance would always be similar (don't pre-judge performance based on retail price).

agree that skepticism is reasonable......in the absence of data points.

 

[mountainjoe]

You think we don't know this....?
So all of the above only applies to Marc Gomez and SAT.....?
It doesn't apply to all the other specialist, esoteric arm designers and manufacturers equally?
Micha Huber expended nowhere near the design-development time and prototyping for his Simplicity tonearms which sell for fractions of the SAT...?
Continuum Audio with their team of University trained specialists and computer-churning testing for their Cobra and Copperhead tonearms, expended far less time and energy than Marc Gomez and his helper did at SAT...?
And Dynavector with their revolutionary DV-505/501/507 tonearms and their massive overheads and rents expended nothing in their design and development processes compared to the backyard-garage-occupying Marc Gomez...?
Puleeze give us a break.....
We are comparing apples with apples and the inflated prices of these SAT tonearms are relative to all the high-end tonearm designs available today.

And while you're at it......you might realise that 95% of the design/development for SAT occurred 10 years ago with his original arm.
These new arms are simply building on the basis of all the previous design-development with the benefit of cost-cutting hindsight and structured testing against production tonearms.

Wake up and smell the roses....

Forgive me if I’ve stated the obvious Henry, however I note more than a few discussions where the focus is strictly on the cost of materials justifying the cost of some piece of gear...

In regards to my comments, they were general comments about the cost of audio gear and not intended to specifically support or justify the costs of the SAT arms. I have no basis by which to assess the costs of development, assembly, and materials for these arms so cannot give an informed opinion on their pricing.

It should be noted however that the financials posted by Masterchief would not indicate they are making huge sums of money out of their business.

Look I agree these arms are rediculously expensive and even if I could afford one, I would look for lower priced options as I believe there are very high performers at much more reasonable prices. Currently I use two FR tonearms that are ~40 years old.

Cheers, Joe

 

[ddk]

While many will agree that $50k is a lot of money we don't all see value the same way. I can say with certainty if people didn't find value in the original SAT there wouldn't be a series two 12" version. I see it with the AS-2000, as many are going with the SAT almost as they are with the SME 3012-Rs, all other tonearms seem to be more novelty and a matter of variety or something that they had laying around for these buyers.

david

Edit- If you think that price is the only reason for these audiophiles buying the SAT then the $35k Vertere would enjoy the same success, yet I don't see one in action anywhere.