Power cables: What would it take to change your view?

[853guy]

Perhaps they would. I believe some things n this thread have mentioned that measurements would be what would help change their minds.

Instead of becoming angry though (I sense anger, in hope I'm wrong ) why don't you tell us what would change your mind ?

I agree that proof means different things to different people or cultures or in different fields of endeavour.
All I'm asking is what would satisfy each individual. I'm specifically, explicitly, not requiring that anyone needs to satisfy anyone else that their proof is adequate

Hi Whatmore,

The problem I allude to in my post above is that "changing one's (own) mind" is fraught with difficulty because the subject is just as likely to move from a false positive to a false negative (or vice versa) unless the conditions of what constitutes a "change" are able to be robustly defined with regard to one's perception. Like I say, it's too easy to under- and/or over-estimate any change via subjective listening alone, and too easy to exaggerate the level of confidence and/or the level of estimation of any objective analysis under DBT conditions, especially when dealing with non-significant sample populations.

Unless we can answer the question: "How can we know definitively the subject has changed their mind in line with an actual change or non-change?", simply reporting one has changed their mind is no better than one reporting they have not.

Or, if proof is indeed something that will simply "satisfy each individual", then again we are really asking, "can the individual define change for themselves beyond the limits of their own perception?" If not, again, we only reinforce the problem.

853guy

 

[Whatmore]

Hi Whatmore,

The problem I allude to in my post above is that "changing one's (own) mind" is fraught with difficulty because the subject is just as likely to move from a false positive to a false negative (or vice versa) unless the conditions of what constitutes a "change" are able to be robustly defined with regard to one's perception. Like I say, it's too easy to under- and/or over-estimate any change via subjective listening alone, and too easy to exaggerate the level of confidence and/or the level of estimation of any objective analysis under DBT conditions, especially when dealing with non-significant sample populations.

Unless we can answer the question: "How can we know definitively the subject has changed their mind in line with an actual change or non-change?", simply reporting one has changed their mind is no better than one reporting they have not.

853guy

Fair dinkum mate, you've confused me now

 

[853guy]

Fair dinkum mate, you've confused me now

Bloody oath! A bloke could cark it just thinking about it. Best to crack a tinny and get the barbie fired up.

With loving affection from an All Blacks supporter,

853guy

 

[microstrip]

Perhaps they would. I believe some things n this thread have mentioned that measurements would be what would help change their minds.

Instead of becoming angry though (I sense anger, in hope I'm wrong ) why don't you tell us what would change your mind ?

Wrong again ... As I have often written, my participation in audio forums is mainly for entertainment and information concerning high-end audio. I appreciate reading and sharing points of views with others. It is a subjective matter, we all have opinions, but there are some technical facts that we can not skip.

If you were not so busy trying to read people minds from the antipodes you would have noticed that I already referred that proper listening tests would easily change my mind (and probably others mind) if they lead in such direction, but that no one had the time or resources to carry them until now and I do not have hope that anyone will do them to please the WBF members. I hope I am more clear this time.

 

[amirm]

If you were not so busy trying to read people minds from the antipodes you would have noticed that I already referred that proper listening tests would easily change my mind (and probably others mind) if they lead in such direction, but that no one had the time or resources to carry them until now and I do not have hope that anyone will do them to please the WBF members. I hope I am more clear this time.

So you have run tests that were easy and readily within your means to show value of power cords but tests that could show the opposite outcome to you are impossibly hard to conduct?

 

[microstrip]

So you have run tests that were easy and readily within your means to show value of power cords but tests that could show the opposite outcome to you are impossibly hard to conduct?

The simple but many tests I have run are valid for me and my friends who participate in them - but surely do not prove anything. But systematically go in the direction I support - power cables affect sound quality in stereo reproduction.
Recently we had two Devialet 200 power amplifiers running in parallel and only swapped speaker cables - separate people who did not know what was the cable agreed on describing the difference - a Van den Hul Mainstream PC was mellower and slower, Nordost Quantum was brighter, faster but sometimes aggressive.

IMHO the best way to show that PC cables matter is not comparing good cables - it is picking one that sounds particularly poor in a system.

As I said before I have listened to many great systems tuned and tweaked by believers, but none or any report that could enthusiasm me by the skeptics that systematically claim for DBT. So I know which opinions I should valuate until some one comes with the result of proper tests.

 

[amirm]

The simple but many tests I have run are valid for me and my friends who participate in them - but surely do not prove anything.

Did they prove anything to you?

 

[microstrip]

Did they prove anything to you?

Yes. That I should optimize power cables in my system if I want to please my preferences.

 

[amirm]

Yes. That I should optimize power cables in my system if I want to please my preferences.

So using the same standard of acceptance, explain how it could change your view.

 

[Whatmore]

Bloody oath! A bloke could cark it just thinking about it. Best to crack a tinny and get the barbie fired up.

With loving affection from an All Blacks supporter,

853guy

Ok so let's have a crazy rugby analogy
I support the Wallabies despite (and it hurts to admit this) a lot of objective evidence that the All Blacks are a superior team.
Could I imagine a situation in which I'd switch allegiances?

Very very hard to conceive of it. The thought of it shocks me to the core, but it may be possible: my daughter might marry an All Black fly half, I might emigrate to New Zealand and so fall in love with the country (not far fetched in itself ) that I would have to change teams.

 

[microstrip]

So using the same standard of acceptance, explain how it could change your view.

Simple. If the informal results were the reverse and I could have seen any positive and constructive activity leading to improvement in sound quality of high-end systems from the cable skeptics I would invest my money, time and resources elsewhere than power cables.

 

[plissken]

The comment about Minnesota is relevant because it provides measured, scientific evidence done by an independent hospital (not an audio company with an agenda) who measured performance with and without Shunyata power equipment incl their cables and found their systems performed measurably better WITH Shunyata. So for those who do NOT believe in the efficacy of power cables, it is 'a way' to possibly allow them to re-consider that for audio, Shunyata might also improve the performance of their audio systems.

It is a data point.

From my read on it they are using power conditioners. Unless someone can show anything different and that it's only a measured response of just the power cable.

 

[amirm]

Simple. If the informal results were the reverse and I could have seen any positive and constructive activity leading to improvement in sound quality of high-end systems from the cable skeptics I would invest my money, time and resources elsewhere than power cables.

You keep talking about other people. Try one more time and this time only include yourself and provide details of the test.

 

[LL21]

From my read on it they are using power conditioners. Unless someone can show anything different and that it's only a measured response of just the power cable.

Well, they are apparently using both power cables and conditioners...at the end of the day, this is the most scientific study i am aware of, and while they did not isolate the power cable only, they are using both power cables and power conditioner from the sounds of it. i believe i read somewhere he tried the PC first... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY_g2Txqmoc ...found improvements...and then started on the whole outfit with Shunyata's help. Here is a bit from Shunyata directly:

"...Dr. Melby has a music system. He purchased some of our products from Music Direct for his music system and was impressed. E.P Labs have endemic noise problems, so he became curious about whether our products would have an effect. He called us and I visited the Hospital with a system of our products--power cords and power-distributors. His written account of the results is published along with he video linked off of our front page.

Dr Melby was not paid one cent for his time and in fact, his wife came with him on a Saturday to shoot the video because she is an avid photographer and wanted to see the process. These are extremely kind people to have done this for us, so its hard for me to read some of these comments . The products were not given away. Moreover, Dr. Melby and his team referred several other hospitals and biomedical companies to us. We produced similar results at a VA hospitals E.P Lab using the same system. These are recorded, objective results, described by a leader in his industry that is above being bribed or paid to lie. Credibility and integrity among professionals in the medical industry is critical. Obviously, few physicians with his credentials would risk that for a few dollars. We could not, or would never afford to pay anyone to make up stories on his scale.

You can discount this out of hand, of course, but I'd recommend reading a bi more and decide for your self if this looks made up or real. I assure you, it is

Regards,

Grant Samuelsen
Shunyata Research"

 

[microstrip]

You keep talking about other people. Try one more time and this time only include yourself and provide details of the test.

Do you think you are the great dictator of WBF? Bye. I do not intent to feed trolls.

 

[Whatmore]

Do you think you are the great dictator of WBF? Bye. I do not intent to feed trolls.

Come on you blokes, keep it nice would ya?

 

[plissken]

Well, they are apparently using both power cables and conditioners...

Ok. So why is it being used as a proof in a power cable only thread? Please tell me you can see the problem here.

 

[Whatmore]

Ok. So why is it being used as a proof in a power cable only thread? Please tell me you can see the problem here.

Actually this thread is not about anything being used as proof to convince others. It's about what would convince anyone individually. It's therefore not relevant if that individual's proof is not to the liking of anyone else

 

[plissken]

Actually this thread is not about anything being used as proof to convince others. It's about what would convince anyone individually. It's therefore not relevant if that individual's proof is not to the liking of anyone else

Ok. Using a power conditioner and a power cable together, if I heard a difference, would not prove to me that I heard a difference in a power cable.

 

[audioguy]

I can't say power cords or do not sound different but not to my ears - and I wanted them to.

Many moons ago (maybe 10 to 15+ years), I decided to make the upgrade from stock cords to high end power cords. I was spending money on this hobby at a fast clip and wanted to do any and everything I could (and could afford) to extract the maximum out of my system. My configuration was quite complex (over 30 components since it was a combined 2 channel room and multi-channel room) so decided that if I were going to do this, I would do it all of the way ... and I did. I purchased 33 cords from a company, who at the time, was a reasonably well known and respected high end power cord manufacturer (as well as interconnects). The company was Harmonic Technologies and the cords were between about $200 and $400 each, depending on length. A friend helped me replace all of the cords, and I started up the system - initially just two channel. I had a good analog turntable at the time (VPI) but chose to just use digital for my initial listening. I had the 4 pieces dCS stack driving Bryston amps and Dunlavy SC-VI speakers.

I could tell absolutely no difference and I can not tell you how amazingly disappointed I was after having spent those so many thousands of dollars (close to $10,000) to move into this part of the hobby. Clearly I had "expectation bias" but in the direction of wanting to hear improvements and still couldn't. My friend who was with me and had heard my system many times could tell no difference either. Again, can't say there was not, a difference only that I (or we) could not hear it. I ended up keeping the cords for many years and only when my priorities changed and wanted to put all of my equipment in a vertical rack, the cords had to go as they were very inflexible.

Are there differences? Maybe so but if I could not hear them having replaced all of my stock cords to new cords at the same time, I would have to classify those changes as not very important to me.

One of the attributes I have read about high end power cords was that they provided a quieter background for the music to play through. Just prior to buying the new cords, I had invested in power conditioners/regenerators for all of my front end gear and that did seem to reduce the noise floor so maybe there was no more work to do for the new cords.

I know I am in the very small minority on this forum but the good news is I have saved a TON of money by not having to buy high end PC's!!

So the answer to the question of what would convince me? Probably nothing at this point. And if I were to go for a listen to a comparison by someone who thought they could help me hear the differences, I would still insist on a blind listening session.