Power cables: What would it take to change your view?

[FrantzM]

That's a great story of your experience. Thanks for sharing.
All of us have stories and experiences that inform how we've come to our current view/belief about the effect of cables. Some of those experiences have led some of us to think that cables are vital to the life of our system. Equally some experiences have led others to believe that cables are all the same.

Again, you've told us how you've come to your current view. Interesting as that is, it doesn't answer the question.
I'm challenging you (and others) to imagine a situation in which your view might change.

Even when I was a cable believer, I never believed in Power Cables still don't. I would like to witness a change in PC cable that provoke a clear and repeatable change in FR. Say to make things interesting, at least 0.5 dB repeatably from anywhere between 20 to 20 KHz. Of course I am game to perceivable and repeatable changes in SQ that goes beyond the "new limit of the soundstage have been pushed back even more and the darkness of the noise floor, etc..."

I would also ask for some civility. I have seen lately too many posts in which people are denigrated for not subscribing to the Orthodoxy of High End Audio.

 

[LL21]

Even when I was a cable believer, I never believed in Power Cables still don't. I would like to witness a change in PC cable that provoke a clear and repeatable change in FR. Say to make things interesting, at least 0.5 dB repeatably from anywhere between 20 to 20 KHz. Of course I am game to perceivable and repeatable changes in SQ that goes beyond the "new limit of the soundstage have been pushed back even more and the darkness of the noise floor, etc..."

I would also ask for some civility. I have seen lately too many posts in which people are denigrated for not subscribing to the Orthodoxy of High End Audio.

i would also be interested to see actual measurements, mainly to learn. The reason like the Minnesota Heart Institute article is because they measured the improvement directly related to the Shunyata products in the acuity/accuracy of their finely tuned medical instruments and monitoring equipment.

 

[Steve Williams]

i would also be interested to see actual measurements, mainly to learn. The reason like the Minnesota Heart Institute article is because they measured the improvement directly related to the Shunyata products in the acuity/accuracy of their finely tuned medical instruments and monitoring equipment.

I'm curious why the article from the Minnesota Heart Institute has gone without comment from all the PC naysayers

 

[LL21]

I'm curious why the article from the Minnesota Heart Institute has gone without comment from all the PC naysayers

Agree. I acknowledge its not about audio, but it IS from a real hospital company, with real instruments, who used an audiophile product (forget bias!) because it WORKED on detailed, highly sensitive scientific equipment as demonstrated by hard measurements.

 

[Whatmore]

I'm curious why the article from the Minnesota Heart Institute has gone without comment from all the PC naysayers

Steve can you explain to me how that comment is relevant to this thread?
I'm trying really hard to keep this on topic, a bit of leading by example from the mods wouldn't go astray

 

[Steve Williams]

unfortunately this whole thread has gone astray

I'm bowing out.

 

[LL21]

Steve can you explain to me how that comment is relevant to this thread?
I'm trying really hard to keep this on topic, a bit of leading by example from the mods wouldn't go astray

The comment about Minnesota is relevant because it provides measured, scientific evidence done by an independent hospital (not an audio company with an agenda) who measured performance with and without Shunyata power equipment incl their cables and found their systems performed measurably better WITH Shunyata. So for those who do NOT believe in the efficacy of power cables, it is 'a way' to possibly allow them to re-consider that for audio, Shunyata might also improve the performance of their audio systems.

It is a data point.

 

[Whatmore]

unfortunately this whole thread has gone astray

I'm bowing out.

I actually think it's been more civil than many threads. And I think that's partly because it's been seeking individuals' opinions and has been deliberately not about one side trying to convince another.
That's a good thing isn't it?

As an aside Steve, you haven't actually answered the question in the first post. Perhaps you could help bring the thread back on track by sharing your answer with us

 

[microstrip]

But I'm pretty sure that if you or Lloyd removed your cables "sighted" that there would of course, be a difference. So you aren't really challenging yourselves.
I'm asking for people to really consider, honestly with themselves,whether something would change their view. Putting up a hypothetical that you know will fail is simply dodging the question.

Come on people, surely you are able to push yourselves out of your comfort zone?

So, as I had guessed, the main debate of the thread in not on cables - it is on the methodology we use to check small differences. In the end it finishes in the usual DBT / sighted listening question. As no one has the time and resources to carry the proper tests that could be accepted by the other part, it is a dead end. But yes, we have read nice stories of experiences in this thread.

Surely outside audio, there are many fields where we can show measured influence of power cables - the needle of an ultra sensitive laboratory electrometer fluctuates less and gives more consistent results if I use the Keithley supplied properly screened thick power cable than a cheap computer power cable. But IMHO it does not prove anything in the field of audio, although is opens doors for people with open minds.

Would anyone become a believer if I showed a measurement carried with an audio spectrometer showing visible differences in the spectra with different power cables?

 

[microstrip]

Even when I was a cable believer, I never believed in Power Cables still don't. I would like to witness a change in PC cable that provoke a clear and repeatable change in FR. Say to make things interesting, at least 0.5 dB repeatably from anywhere between 20 to 20 KHz. Of course I am game to perceivable and repeatable changes in SQ that goes beyond the "new limit of the soundstage have been pushed back even more and the darkness of the noise floor, etc..."

I would also ask for some civility. I have seen lately too many posts in which people are denigrated for not subscribing to the Orthodoxy of High End Audio.

Frantz,

IMHO your requirement could show you are joking with WBF people or are completely ignorant in audio and electronics matters. Fortunately I know which is true. No PC cable can produce such difference.

And yes, we are in different games. Also IMHO you became a partisan of the Orthodoxy of the anti High End Audio. But surely we will friendly disagree on what is the High End Audio just to start ...

 

[Rodney Gold]

I would change my mind that PC's matter if I was able to do an instant seamless AB test and detected a difference.

 

[853guy]

So, as I had guessed, the main debate of the thread in not on cables - it is on the methodology we use to check small differences. In the end it finishes in the usual DBT / sighted listening question. As no one has the time and resources to carry the proper tests that could be accepted by the other part, it is a dead end. But yes, we have read nice stories of experiences in this thread.

Surely outside audio, there are many fields where we can show measured influence of power cables - the needle of an ultra sensitive laboratory electrometer fluctuates less and gives more consistent results if I use the Keithley supplied properly screened thick power cable than a cheap computer power cable. But IMHO it does not prove anything in the field of audio, although is opens doors for people with open minds.

Would anyone become a believer if I showed a measurement carried with an audio spectrometer showing visible differences in the spectra with different power cables?

Great post, Micro.

Proof is a culturally prescribed notion. What constitutes proof to one person will often not be considered proof to another. This is especially so when dealing with a perceptual phenomena such as listening to and evaluating music via an intermediary mechanism.

While on the one hand we have a group of listener’s who will state they’ve experienced (perceived) changes, the limits of language re: another sensory phenomenon make those changes difficult to consistently articulate within a given lexicon, causing the subject to over- and/or under-exaggerate the experience relative to any (actual) change having taken place.

Those who say there can be no possible changes to perceive because a particular ABX test failed to produce conclusive results beyond chance often fail to have set up robust scientific methodologies in terms of establishing controls, subject selection, bias elimination in experimenter/subject, ambient noise levels, and especially avoiding low-statistical power causing the experimenter to be over-confident in the results and over-estimate their true effects relative to the wider population. What’s more, the subject “saying” they perceive or do not perceive a difference is entirely different than their brain registering a difference that they either A) are preconditioned not to recognise, or; B) are unable to articulate. That is, too much “science” that happens apropos the audio playback mechanism is the result of faulty experimental design or faulty analysis.

To your last question” “Would anyone become a believer if I showed a measurement carried with an audio spectrometer showing visible differences in the spectra with different power cables?” is possible best reworded “If showed a measurement carried with an audio spectrometer showing visible differences in the spectra of different power cables, would the subject be able to overcome their tendency to interpret the result via their own world-view in order to continue to hold onto their prejudices.”

Incidentally, Mark Liddell breaks down Simpson's Paradox for why conditional variables can skew data and be used to manipulate others and promote their own agenda here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxYrzzy3cq8

 

[microstrip]

I would change my mind that PC's matter if I was able to do an instant seamless AB test and detected a difference.

What are you exactly considering an "instant seamless AB test"?

 

[Rodney Gold]

Being able to switch between 2 cables instantly without a gap or a click.

 

[853guy]

Being able to switch between 2 cables instantly without a gap or a click.

Hi Rodney,

That's probably ideal, I agree. But does anyone know how one could do so effectively given that the powering up/down of the component in question, if only for the shortest possible period of time, has the potential to cause changes in the component (rather than the power cable) leading to inconsistent results? The question is perhaps best articulated by asking whether what one was listening to was A) the difference between two cables, or; B) the switching device's ability to (not) influence the component the cables are attached to. I don't really know how one would get around that...

853guy

 

[amirm]

Proof is a culturally prescribed notion. What constitutes proof to one person will often not be considered proof to another.

Is it really that hard to understand OP's question? Here it is again:

My question is: you are likely to have a view on power cables, do they make a difference or not....

What would it take for you to change that view?

I have highlighted the key word. He is not, not, not asking you to convince anyone else. He is asking you, you, you, based on whatever methodology could change your mind.

The uneasiness to go there is remarkable.

 

[853guy]

Is it really that hard to understand OP's question? Here it is again:

My question is: you are likely to have a view on power cables, do they make a difference or not....

What would it take for you to change that view?

I have highlighted the key word. He is not, not, not asking you to convince anyone else. He is asking you, you, you, based on whatever methodology could change your mind.

The uneasiness to go there is remarkable.

Hi Amir,

Let me address you in the most clear, concise and non-evasive way possible: Condescension is not something I tolerate from my children, and it is not something I will tolerate from you. It may work wonderfully for you in other avenues of life or with other people, but will not with me.

Have a good evening.

853guy

 

[twitch]

Is it really that hard to understand OP's question? Here it is again:



I have highlighted the key word. He is not, not, not asking you to convince anyone else. He is asking you, you, you, based on whatever methodology could change your mind.

The uneasiness to go there is remarkable.

agreed Amir, way too many 'silly' responses.

again, for me and IMO the only way my view would change is through non biased, dbt testing of cables.

 

[Whatmore]

So, as I had guessed, the main debate of the thread in not on cables - it is on the methodology we use to check small differences. In the end it finishes in the usual DBT / sighted listening question. As no one has the time and resources to carry the proper tests that could be accepted by the other part, it is a dead end. But yes, we have read nice stories of experiences in this thread.

Surely outside audio, there are many fields where we can show measured influence of power cables - the needle of an ultra sensitive laboratory electrometer fluctuates less and gives more consistent results if I use the Keithley supplied properly screened thick power cable than a cheap computer power cable. But IMHO it does not prove anything in the field of audio, although is opens doors for people with open minds.

Would anyone become a believer if I showed a measurement carried with an audio spectrometer showing visible differences in the spectra with different power cables?

Perhaps they would. I believe some things n this thread have mentioned that measurements would be what would help change their minds.

Instead of becoming angry though (I sense anger, in hope I'm wrong ) why don't you tell us what would change your mind ?

 

[Whatmore]

Great post, Micro.

Proof is a culturally prescribed notion. What constitutes proof to one person will often not be considered proof to another. This is especially so when dealing with a perceptual phenomena such as listening to and evaluating music via an intermediary mechanism.

I agree that proof means different things to different people or cultures or in different fields of endeavour.
All I'm asking is what would satisfy each individual. I'm specifically, explicitly, not requiring that anyone needs to satisfy anyone else that their proof is adequate