Some tantalizing rumors about Wilson and Magico

Steve's post is really well to the point IMHO. I too have a big problem with reviewers who gush hyperbole one minute and damnation the next....It shows me that said reviewer simply does not have either a discriminating enough ear to hear the various faults in the piece under initial review, or something more sinister is at play.:mad:
 
Some examples of (IMO) Innovative Speakers:

How about Dr. Hill's Plasmatronics Speaker? Not a great success but certainly, innovative.

Or the original Dayton Wrights.

Or maybe even (shudder) the original Bose 901. Sounds like crap but no-one else was doing it if I recall
 
I also find particularly annoying to find that these said pieces of gear, whether they be speakers, amps or whatever that are bought at accommodation or deeply discounted prices show up on Audiogon one year later by reviewers with an asking price often more than what they paid. Sorry for meandering off topic but when I read a comment here by a reviewer putting down a product which heretofore had not only a favorable review at the same zine but a gushing review and then says it isn't innovative gives me pause to wonder about the merits of review.

Just my $0.02
 
Steve's post is really well to the point IMHO. I too have a big problem with reviewers who gush hyperbole one minute and damnation the next....It shows me that said reviewer simply does not have either a discriminating enough ear to hear the various faults in the piece under initial review, or something more sinister is at play.:mad:

I also find particularly annoying to find that these said pieces of gear, whether they be speakers, amps or whatever that are bought at accommodation or deeply discounted prices show up on Audiogon one year later by reviewers with an asking price often more than what they paid. Sorry for meandering off topic but when I read a comment here by a reviewer putting down a product which heretofore had not only a favorable review at the same zine but a gushing review and then says it isn't innovative gives me pause to wonder about the merits of review.

Just my $0.02
 
Hi

Not having read the exchanges which lead to Steve last post .. Saying that Magico and Wilson are not innovative is not the same thing as saying that they don't sound good or superior to many other speakers...

The Hill Transducers were/are very innovative.. I am not sure their performance would that of today's design ...

Thus my maintaining that Wilson and Magico are not innovative ... And the list is long .. I don't find Rockport innovative nor Von Schweikert or Evolution Acoustics innovative... Speakers for which I have great respects for and would be among the fist I will consider when rebuilding my system
 
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We need innovative solutions for political, environmental, and scientific problems.

We just need speakers that can make music! If they can, I'll call that innovative.
 
I completely agree and BTW, I love your Avatar :)
 
Ah Randall, I guess you just haven't been with Soundstage Network long enough to discover that what is innovative by your reviewers one day are trashed the next. I would also be happy to post some very interesting conversations here between myself and the reviewer shortly after he heard the demo at DW's house. Needless to say he was impressed then.

Ahhh but I guess I am demonstrating some bias here. :)

http://www.ultraaudio.com/features/2004_02_01.htm

Granted the review was 6 years ago but I am always interested to see how the glow of a review one year by the reviewer becomes the tarnish of the same reviewers the next year. Seems to me the reviewer at that time indeed had a pair of X-2 Series l's. A similar comment at the same time by the same reviewer regarding Halcro amps also said that this amp was the cat's meow and far ahead of anything else. Interesting how the reviewer dumped his Halcro the following year because it no longer met his expectations. I say this not to denigrate the reviewer but to illustrate the very issue with which I have a problem

Steve, we go way back, so you can use my name even if it’s being critical. I can take it. I’m glad to address your point fully.

First, there is a difference between being a reviewer and a consumer. If I ever hang-up my reviewer hat and settle into a personal audio system for the long term, I’ll buy the best I can and sit back enjoy it for the long haul. At least that’s the goal. As a reviewer, though, I constantly chase better performance -- and yes, that includes loudspeakers. I never know exactly what direction that will take me in -- in a way, the industry decides. There was one period a few years ago that I had in for review 12 pairs of speakers in an 18-month period.

If I take my job seriously -- and believe me I do -- then I have to be intellectually honest. For instance: I am always trying to make myself a better listener; I’m always trying to learn more technically; I’m always trying to expand my audio worldview by listening to products that are diverse. If there is buzz about a product, I try to hear it -- either in my system, or if that’s not possible, I get on a plane and go if I can. This “job” has an ongoing impact, and changes me, necessarily, as a listener, continuously.

You are correct that I wrote glowingly about a number of products some years ago. My words, then, honestly reflected my observations and feelings at that time. Today, I have experienced much, much more -- products and listening experiences -- than I had back then, and I’ve learned more: about the products themselves, and as a listener. Time marches on, products improve, and at the same time I hope I am becoming a more astute, more knowledgeable listener with every month that passes.

How does this relate to your note? The speakers that I think are at the pinnacle today perform better than others I’ve heard in the past. That does not mean that products that were competitive five or ten years back are bad products today. But it does mean that as technologies and companies have improved, the pecking order gets reshuffled. I’m quite sure that five years from now, if I’m still a reviewer, there will be a product that I’ll be discussing glowingly that isn’t even a reality today. Heck, I hope that’s the case.

Ultimately, credibility is all a reviewer really has. And for me that means that I have to call it like I hear it even if that result isn’t popular or someone’s feelings get hurt. I have to hang my hat on what I hear and learn -- based on all I have at my disposal.

So yes, the upshot is that what I think is the best today is what I think is the best today. And yes, that’s different than what I said was the best years ago. I’m not too invested in anything I own, or have written about, to hear something better and say “That’s better.” At the end of the day, my credibility hinges on it.
 
Being a speaker builder myself , i would say MBL with their rundumstrahler with the exotic looking mids and high units definetively get the innovation price from me , although not soundwise (heard just at shows)
I like both wilson and magico for the way they sound and the way they are made , the cone speaker technologie maybe a old technologie but the way bit is executed these days by a number of brands is exellent.
Its time for a new technologie but what where and how .

greetz hj

andromeda audio
 
I also find particularly annoying to find that these said pieces of gear, whether they be speakers, amps or whatever that are bought at accommodation or deeply discounted prices show up on Audiogon one year later by reviewers with an asking price often more than what they paid. Sorry for meandering off topic but when I read a comment here by a reviewer putting down a product which heretofore had not only a favorable review at the same zine but a gushing review and then says it isn't innovative gives me pause to wonder about the merits of review.

Just my $0.02

Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but since the other one was, I'll respond.

Yes, I buy at industry accommodation prices. Yes, I sometimes sell these products on Audiogon, only after my agreement is satisfied with said company, and I have replaced the product in my system. I typically break even, when everything is averaged out over the course of a year. I prefer this to an industry practice of long-term loans whereby the reviewer has to write about certain products because those companies give him/her the gear for free.

I've also written my stance on this:

http://ultraaudio.com/opinion/20070301.htm
 
Well at least you have to buy. Reviewers that receive products for long term loan have no credibility as far as I am concerned. Especially the ones that don't have purpose-built listening rooms.
I too receive industry accommodation pricing. But because I have to buy and run a business, I have to make critical decisions on whether it will better my clients music and make my job easier.
Half the people in the Pro world that I see "endorsing" a product never use it on a day to day basis. That's just wrong.
 
Not sure if this is directed at me or not, but since the other one was, I'll respond.

Yes, I buy at industry accommodation prices. Yes, I sometimes sell these products on Audiogon, only after my agreement is satisfied with said company, and I have replaced the product in my system. I typically break even, when everything is averaged out over the course of a year. I prefer this to an industry practice of long-term loans whereby the reviewer has to write about certain products because those companies give him/her the gear for free.

I've also written my stance on this:

http://ultraaudio.com/opinion/20070301.htm

I think that this question about reviewers and long term loans has been talked about on other sites.

On PFO, each reviewer is required to list what pieces of gear in their system is owned and what is on loan. (Cables aside since they're a reviewing tool--at least for those who believe cables are important.)

I think that having a stable system is a prerequisite for a reference system. Components can't be changed like underwear. On the other hand, there's no question that the long term loan policy has been abused by many individuals.
 
Steve, we go way back, so you can use my name even if it’s being critical. I can take it. I’m glad to address your point fully.

First, there is a difference between being a reviewer and a consumer. If I ever hang-up my reviewer hat and settle into a personal audio system for the long term, I’ll buy the best I can and sit back enjoy it for the long haul. At least that’s the goal. As a reviewer, though, I constantly chase better performance -- and yes, that includes loudspeakers. I never know exactly what direction that will take me in -- in a way, the industry decides. There was one period a few years ago that I had in for review 12 pairs of speakers in an 18-month period.

If I take my job seriously -- and believe me I do -- then I have to be intellectually honest. For instance: I am always trying to make myself a better listener; I’m always trying to learn more technically; I’m always trying to expand my audio worldview by listening to products that are diverse. If there is buzz about a product, I try to hear it -- either in my system, or if that’s not possible, I get on a plane and go if I can. This “job” has an ongoing impact, and changes me, necessarily, as a listener, continuously.

You are correct that I wrote glowingly about a number of products some years ago. My words, then, honestly reflected my observations and feelings at that time. Today, I have experienced much, much more -- products and listening experiences -- than I had back then, and I’ve learned more: about the products themselves, and as a listener. Time marches on, products improve, and at the same time I hope I am becoming a more astute, more knowledgeable listener with every month that passes.

How does this relate to your note? The speakers that I think are at the pinnacle today perform better than others I’ve heard in the past. That does not mean that products that were competitive five or ten years back are bad products today. But it does mean that as technologies and companies have improved, the pecking order gets reshuffled. I’m quite sure that five years from now, if I’m still a reviewer, there will be a product that I’ll be discussing glowingly that isn’t even a reality today. Heck, I hope that’s the case.

Ultimately, credibility is all a reviewer really has. And for me that means that I have to call it like I hear it even if that result isn’t popular or someone’s feelings get hurt. I have to hang my hat on what I hear and learn -- based on all I have at my disposal.

So yes, the upshot is that what I think is the best today is what I think is the best today. And yes, that’s different than what I said was the best years ago. I’m not too invested in anything I own, or have written about, to hear something better and say “That’s better.” At the end of the day, my credibility hinges on it.

Jeff, two questions

1. When you say that you are not too heavily invested in anything you own, are you talking emotionally or financially?

2. Is it customary to receive accommodation pricing on a piece of equipment for which you haven't written a review? I suppose that this is a fair question to be asked of all reviewers, not just yourself
 
I have purchased three review samples, two were HT subwoofers and the other purchase were sound treatments from Real Traps. Each purchase was arranged after the review had been posted on the site. The rest of my accommodation purchases have been 2 pair of speakers (Rockport and Vivid), a couple of preamps, a power conditioner, and some cables. I own all my gear.

As for investment into the gear we own. For me, I have lost a bit of emotional attachment to my audio system simply because I have so much gear come and go. I just sold my Rockport Mira's after owning them for 4 years. I will miss them. They were truly the first great loudspeaker I have ever owned. But, time moves on and I feel I need to freshen my reference. Being too biased in the reviewing business isn't good for the companies sending their products in for review and it isn't good for the reader. My preferences change, my perceptions change. This is why we conduct in-room measurements for each speaker we get for review. Not only does it verify what we are hearing, but it also helps us properly set up each speaker to attain the best position for the speaker.

So, while you question our ethics and our objectivity, we actually spend more time researching this hobby than most audiophiles. This makes us more aware of products in the market and it makes our observations more reliable. At least, that is what we are shooting for.
 
Jeff, two questions

1. When you say that you are not too heavily invested in anything you own, are you talking emotionally or financially?

2. Is it customary to receive accommodation pricing on a piece of equipment for which you haven't written a review? I suppose that this is a fair question to be asked of all reviewers, not just yourself

1. I am not too heavily invested in any way not to call it as I see it.
2. Yes. Therefore it is an equal playing field. As industry professionals we can purchase from most companies at industry prices.

We arrange every purchase from every reviewer we have. I have ship-in/ship-out dates for every review sample we've acquired for over ten years. We track it all. And we have fired reviewers over unethical incidents (three in fact).

Steve, I have a question for you since I have answered yours. In a thread about innovation in speaker design, why the grilling? I have tried to be very transparent. But I am answering questions that seem to relate to ethics of reviewers. And for some reason you have singled me out.
 
Jeff I guess that I am not singling you or anyone out but I do get dyspepsia when I see these pieces advertised on Audiogon at prices usually greater than the accommodation pricing or for one reviewer to take expensive cables and to cut them up, reterminate and sell off the pieces at a huge profit

IMO to sell these pieces at higher than the accommodation pricing makes the reviewer nothing more than a dealer. Things such as this serve no purpose other than to tarnish this hobby.

My response was triggered by your associate making a statement such as he did
 
I am on the other side of the situation of the review equipment. My Nola LCR Reference speaker is one of the three used in the Brent Butterworth Robb Report in Home Entertanment of the Nola LCR Reference speakers, Nola Viper IIA speakers, and the Nola Thunderbolt III subwoofer. The speakers were returned to Scott Markwell (HPs assistant at one time) and themusic.com. I purchased the speaker on Audiogon from Scott and themusic.com.

Rich
 
Jeff I guess that I am not singling you or anyone out but I do get dyspepsia when I see these pieces advertised on Audiogon at prices usually greater than the accommodation pricing or for one reviewer to take expensive cables and to cut them up, reterminate and sell off the pieces at a huge profit

IMO to sell these pieces at higher than the accommodation pricing makes the reviewer nothing more than dealer. Things such as this serve no purpose other than to tarnish this hobby.

My response was triggered by your associate making a statement such as he did

We don't take gifts. We buy at industry prices and have guidelines with respect to onwership. Most industry prices are 50%. Used gear a couple years old ususally sell at 50%. It is almost always a wash in my experience. The cut-up cable thing is a whole 'nother subject.
 

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