Focus

[alexandrov]

Hi,
one of the things I appreciate most in music reproduction is the focus. I'm very sensitive to indefinable instrument images or oversized singer heads in front of me. While listen to the music I want to "see" all instruments and voices well outlined in space and realistic in size. You know that any component can better or blur the images and I wonder what are the determinants that make a component capable of well focused sound, what the focus depends on?

 

[mep]

Phase irregularities.

 

[alexandrov]

Is it possible cables to introduce phase irregularities? Or phase irregularities to disappear with burn-in of a component (an amp, cables, etc.)?

 

[mep]

The first thing to look for is one speaker wired out of phase compared to the other speaker. That will cause you to have big focus problems. If your only issue is giant heads singing to you, that's probably a speaker design issue.

 

[PeterA]

Is it possible cables to introduce phase irregularities? Or phase irregularities to disappear with burn-in of a component (an amp, cables, etc.)?

I heard what sounded like phase issues when auditioning a particular set of speaker cables with networks. When I adjusted the network settings, the focus became very diffuse. I'm confident that phase was being effected and the dealer sort of agreed with me, but could not be sure. I agree that image size and focus are important. Sometimes it has to do with mic location and recording techniques, but I think phase irregularities can certainly also be a factor.

 

[Vapor1]

Phase irregularities.

More specifically, phase tracking well outside of drivers pass-bands. Many speakers use high order slopes because the drivers employed have poor out-of-band performance, and they need a fast roll-off to keep those trouble areas at low levels. But that out-of-band performance still affects phase tracking whether it's -40db down or not. Ideally you want the shape and slope of the phase rotation between all drivers to be tight and almost reflections of each other well beyond the crossover point.

Also other issues in the time domain can have negative impact on the speakers loss of focus - drivers energy storage, cabinet edge diffraction, and cabinet resonances all act to smear the impulse.

 

[alexandrov]

The first thing to look for is one speaker wired out of phase compared to the other speaker. That will cause you to have big focus problems. If your only issue is giant heads singing to you, that's probably a speaker design issue.

No, I don't have constant problem with this. In fact I'm happy with the capabilities of my system in this regard
It was a theoretical question. I just notice variance in focus using different cables or amps, or after certain burn-in period of some components.

 

[thedudeabides]

How about your system focus within the context of listening to a live jazz or symphony performance?

Same, better, worse?

GG

 

[Ethan Winer]

I wonder what are the determinants that make a component capable of well focused sound, what the focus depends on?

By a huge margin, the biggest improvement in "focus" is achieved by placing absorption at the side-wall (and floor and ceiling) reflection points:

Early Reflections

--Ethan

 

[ddk]

No, I don't have constant problem with this. In fact I'm happy with the capabilities of my system in this regard
It was a theoretical question. I just notice variance in focus using different cables or amps, or after certain burn-in period of some components.

Everything will affect everything else including the recording itself. Putting everything else aside, if you're asking specifically about cables, I find MIT and Transparent wires kings of sound staging. They have most carved out image I've heard from any other cable and they don't enlarge the singer's head to the size of king kong's skull. That's their forté but since there's no free lunch anywhere there's also a cost to their imaging prowess so they're not or me. Depending on your priorities your mileage will vary, you should give them a try.

david

 

[alexandrov]

How about your system focus within the context of listening to a live jazz or symphony performance?

Same, better, worse?

GG

It's recording dependant. Some recordings have better focus, others are mastered worse, especially some orchestral music which often is a strange mix of multiple microphones.
My question was towards the technical explanation of the focus issues. I have two amps and multiple sets of cables and they have different presentation in terms of focus, some are capable of pinpoint images, others have more diffused sound.
Is the phase offset the only culprit?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi,
one of the things I appreciate most in music reproduction is the focus. I'm very sensitive to indefinable instrument images or oversized singer heads in front of me. While listen to the music I want to "see" all instruments and voices well outlined in space and realistic in size. You know that any component can better or blur the images and I wonder what are the determinants that make a component capable of well focused sound, what the focus depends on?

Relative to what? Are you front row center at the symphony, or at the third table back from the band in a small jazz club?

Tim

 

[alexandrov]

There si no absolute reference in audio, of course. Maybe I didn't put my thoughts in the most accurate way but you should understand what I mean
This thread is about the capabilities of some components (amps, sources, cables, etc.) to give better focus compared to other components. I was trying to understand what is the technical explanation of that.

 

[Ethan Winer]

This thread is about the capabilities of some components (amps, sources, cables, etc.) to give better focus compared to other components. I was trying to understand what is the technical explanation of that.

Here's the technical explanation: Unless an amplifier or wire etc is poorly designed, it will have no affect on "focus" or clarity or whatever term you prefer. These days the only things that affect audio quality enough to harm "focus" are loudspeakers and the room you listen in. I'll omit the source because it is what it is. Obviously recordings vary all over the map. But there's nothing a wire can do to change that for better or for worse. If you're serious about learning what affects "focus" and why, set aside 45 minutes and watch this video:

AES Damn Lies

If you like what you see, this hour-long video goes even further:

AES Audio Myths

--Ethan

 

[LL21]

Here's the technical explanation: Unless an amplifier or wire etc is poorly designed, it will have no affect on "focus" or clarity or whatever term you prefer. These days the only things that affect audio quality enough to harm "focus" are loudspeakers and the room you listen in. I'll omit the source because it is what it is. Obviously recordings vary all over the map. But there's nothing a wire can do to change that for better or for worse. If you're serious about learning what affects "focus" and why, set aside 45 minutes and watch this video:

AES Damn Lies

If you like what you see, this hour-long video goes even further:

AES Audio Myths

--Ethan

I guess the question is if one owns Apogee Grands and puts a well designed but essentially outgunned amp due to the speakers sub 1ohm impedance (and the speaker has little control, focus, bass, etc) then is upgrading the amp to a Boulder 3050 so the focus is there attributable to the amp?

I am no techie, so I am asking to learn. Isn't a lot of this about putting the right equipment together? And if so, cannot one say, the amp transformed my Apogee Grands where perhaps lesser amps just could not keep it together under such a brutal load?

 

[thedudeabides]

Relative to what? Are you front row center at the symphony, or at the third table back from the band in a small jazz club?

Tim

Exactly assuming "live / unamplified music" is the reference by which we should judge the merits of our systems. Perhaps those that espouse the use of room treatments can address this obvious paradox.

"The only things that affect audio quality enough to harm focus are loudspeakers and the room you listen in".

Really? What about focus and the impact that amplifiers, preamps, source generators, vibration attenuation devices, etc. have on focus?

GG

PS: And yes, I have briefly looked at Mr. Winer's attachments. Suffice to say that the "facts" presented have their own validity issues within the context of what we hear (and how each individual processes that information) versus what can be measured.

A very myopic and simplistic view of the inherent / subjective complexities of audio.

 

[mep]

Exactly assuming "live / unamplified music" is the reference by which we should judge the merits of our systems. Perhaps those that espouse the use of room treatments can address this obvious paradox.

"The only things that affect audio quality enough to harm focus are loudspeakers and the room you listen in".

Really?

GG

PS: And yes, I have briefly looked at Mr. Winer's attachments. Suffice to say that the "facts" presented have their own validity issues within the context of what we hear versus what can be measured.

Anything more than a brief looks requires some type of medication in order to numb the brain.

 

[MylesBAstor]

 

[rockitman]

A very myopic and simplistic view of the inherent / subjective complexities of audio.

Totally agree.

 

[Ethan Winer]

I guess the question is if one owns Apogee Grands and puts a well designed but essentially outgunned amp due to the speakers sub 1ohm impedance (and the speaker has little control, focus, bass, etc) then is upgrading the amp to a Boulder 3050 so the focus is there attributable to the amp?

Focus is probably not the correct word here. Driving a tough load with an under-powered amplifier will give distortion. Speakers can ring, which loses clarity, though the ringing caused by room resonances is usually much worse. That's why I mentioned absorbers in my first post. Though in this case we're talking about bass traps rather than reflection panels.

I am no techie, so I am asking to learn.

Find time to watch the two videos I linked above and I promise you will learn.

Isn't a lot of this about putting the right equipment together? And if so, cannot one say, the amp transformed my Apogee Grands where perhaps lesser amps just could not keep it together under such a brutal load?

The idea of "synergy" among audio components is a myth. If you can't connect anything to anything without the audio being degraded, you're buying the wrong type of gear. In the rare exception of speakers that go less than 1 ohm at some frequencies (really?) I guess you'll need a serious power amp that can handle it. Or just use different speakers that have more normal attributes.

--Ethan