Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

[Atmasphere]

That seems like a good way of doing things. I think people are still willing - and if anything, actively keen - to see updates to products, in part because they are used to their software going through regular updates. And I also think people are disposed to accept those hardware updates will be chargeable.

I think it's the concept of buying piecemeal and upgrading to better products over the years is starting to run its course. There will still be a lot of people starting with the 'good', trading it in for the 'better' and on to the 'best'. But I think more and more the path is buying upfront, going through the update rather than upgrade process and then eventually moving on. Or maybe up!

FWIW we run into a lot of people that claim they are looking to set up their 'last' system...

Its apparent that the market has been shrinking for some years; IMO as an industry we will become irrelevant unless we are able to inspire a younger generation that there is a real possibility of music. In that regard I am very much of the opinion that the objectivist/subjectivist debate rages on simply because we measure the wrong things, and fail to measure the right things.

As an example, we have seen here pretty clearly that cable capacitance and inductance by themselves do not seem to make much in the way of performance differences in cables. But an ambitious cable project in which I was involved (many years ago) indicated that the real test we should be doing is looking for the Characteristic Impedance of the cable on a TDR. That seemed to yield a lot more in the way of correlation to what we seemed to be hearing in the cables under test at the time. A TDR is only supposed to operate in the RF region; yet we found this correlation... It might be an area worthy of more research, should we be able to agree that in some systems some cables do make a difference. The fact that the cable debate in particular rages on says to me that audible differences do indeed exist. That, BTW, was a major reason we introduced the balanced line system to high end audio- to get rid of cable artifacts.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

all audiophiles are skeptic ,tim

Oh, I don't know. I think there are many audiophiles who are extremely scepticism-challenged.

Tim

 

[Alan Sircom]

FWIW we run into a lot of people that claim they are looking to set up their 'last' system...

Its apparent that the market has been shrinking for some years; IMO as an industry we will become irrelevant unless we are able to inspire a younger generation that there is a real possibility of music. In that regard I am very much of the opinion that the objectivist/subjectivist debate rages on simply because we measure the wrong things, and fail to measure the right things.

As an example, we have seen here pretty clearly that cable capacitance and inductance by themselves do not seem to make much in the way of performance differences in cables. But an ambitious cable project in which I was involved (many years ago) indicated that the real test we should be doing is looking for the Characteristic Impedance of the cable on a TDR. That seemed to yield a lot more in the way of correlation to what we seemed to be hearing in the cables under test at the time. A TDR is only supposed to operate in the RF region; yet we found this correlation... It might be an area worthy of more research, should we be able to agree that in some systems some cables do make a difference. The fact that the cable debate in particular rages on says to me that audible differences do indeed exist. That, BTW, was a major reason we introduced the balanced line system to high end audio- to get rid of cable artifacts.

I've often said that the audiophile spirit is alive and well and living between the ears of a twentysomething with a pair of Audeze headphones. However, that is not universal; the central European and Far Eastern markets still have a comparatively buoyant body of enthusiasts in the 18-49 demographic, and hi-fi is still a thing to enjoy and aspire to improve upon.

The First Ones of audio (America, the UK) have very mature markets, and that both drives up the average age of the hi-fi owner and makes it appear desperately and increasingly uncool to subsequent younger generations (hipsters and their 1970s obsessions notwithstanding). That does stymie a new audience, and when so many consider music on their smartphone to be all they will ever need, and that music is as valueless item, audio faces an uphill struggle.

Nevertheless, I don't think the future is so bleak for audio in the West. The audio world is an almighty state of flux however, and there's no certainty how it will look when it begins to settle down. My bet is increasingly on a more integrated future, and a fairly strict three way division between those who buy cheap, those who buy specialist and those who buy luxury goods. I'd imagine even the way their information about their products will have different threads - the measurement-led will naturally gravitate toward the specialist end, the low cost will be increasingly feature and price led and the luxury breakaway group will be city folk who demand shiny things that require almost no thought to operate. In some respects, we've already got that. I just think it's going to differentiate even more.

 

[Robh3606]

FWIW we run into a lot of people that claim they are looking to set up their 'last' system...

Hello Atmasphere


I am sure you hear that all the time. Don't take this the wrong way but so do the guys in Best Buy. The real question is do they really mean it?? Hell I built my last pair of speakers almost 3 years ago. Now from out of the blue I end up getting some components I couldn't get my hands on previously. Now these will be my "last pair" once I get them built.

I was happy with what I had but it was old and I just purchased a second system and upgraded amps, interconnects and speaker wires on the original system. A year ago I didn't see that coming but here I am

Lots of gloom and doom but I know my kids both appreciate good sound. They grew up with it. So do some of their friends. Sooner or latter they will end up getting decent gear. My not be high end boutique but I wouldn't call the hobby dead just yet. There are plenty of seeds planted form us old folk.

Rob

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Alan

Nice post. I wasn't advocating the "ivory tower" actually a more balanced approach. I think Toole is spot on. I just wanted credit given where credit was due. I know measurements are not perfect but they are a contributor to the progress we have made and continue to make.

Rob

 

[Ethan Winer]

TVan den Hul, a dutch manufactured once said in an interview that in order to see differences between cables we must go down to the -140dB level.

That sounds about right. Since that's 44 dB below the "hiss" of a CD, how likely is the difference to be audible? No statistical analysis is needed, just common sense and a general notion of what 44 dB and 140 dB mean.

Yet again, once it's been established that competent wires don't vary enough to sound different, the logical next step is to investigate why people believe they heard a difference.

--Ethan

 

[microstrip]

(...)

I just wanted credit given where credit was due. I know measurements are not perfect but they are a contributor to the progress we have made and continue to make.

Rob

Rob,

As far as I know no one said that measurements are not desirable or did not contribute to the progress. Our debate until now only referred to the classical measurements, the limitations of their usual use and their use to establish thresholds of audibility.

Anyway, happy to know the current measurement are not perfect in your opinion - some people consider that they really are and nothing else is needed.

 

[microstrip]

I view Naim with great skepticism.

Tim

Tim,

I have no experience with recent Naim gear, but considering the type of sound of their older gear I can understand well your reserves - they openly tailored their sound to a preference. Perhaps the current situation is different.

Anyway, are there any known half-a-dozen high-end brands of electronics that you do not view with great skepticism and can nominate?

 

[j_j]

Let's introduce some facts into this discussion.

Fact #1: The noise due to the molecular nature of air (some all it Brownian noise) at the average eardrum is effectively white noise at a level of between 6dB SPL and 8.5dB SPL. Now, in order to consider the actual audibility of such noise, one must consider the ear's filtering bandwidth vs. the noise density. Interestingly, this puts the threshold of hearing at the most sensitive spot just barely above the atmospheric noise. Bear in mind that the only way to remove this noise is to remove the atmosphere, which is not recommended.

Fact #2: Very few systems, including audiophile systems and in fact pretty much except professional reinforcement systems, will go above 120dB for peaks.

Let us all recall those while we discuss other issues, ok?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

I have no experience with recent Naim gear, but considering the type of sound of their older gear I can understand well your reserves - they openly tailored their sound to a preference. Perhaps the current situation is different.

Anyway, are there any known half-a-dozen high-end brands of electronics that you do not view with great skepticism and can nominate?

The kind of skepticism I have for Naim? I can't speak for the whole line, but the one I've experienced belonged to a friend. Its introduction brought hard edge to the upper midrange of his system, and the two absurdly expensive upgrades (both power supplies) did nothing to solve that problem. Softer, more generalized skepticism? I expect mine begins to subside at a price point you would consider below high-end.

Tim

 

[Groucho]

Its introduction brought hard edge to the upper midrange of his system, and the two absurdly expensive upgrades (both power supplies) did nothing to solve that problem.

Was that a DBT?

 

[mep]

Was that a DBT?

It couldn't have been. We all know that with a DBT no one could discern any differences between a modern high-end amp and a Kenwood receiver from the 1960s.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Was that a DBT?

Nope, it was repeated listens over the course of a few years. FWIW, at the time I wasn't the audio skeptic I am today. I expected his expensive gear from England to be very good, and the conversational build-up before it arrived was enough to create all kinds of high expectations. But when I listened it just didn't sound right to me. That harsh, edgy sound analog lovers think digital has? I've heard it. It was in that Naim kit. He kept if for a few years, took it through a couple of upgrades, swore by it all along, then one day just replaced it with tubes - a Cary; the other end of the spectrum.

Tim

 

[Orb]

Let's introduce some facts into this discussion.

Fact #1: The noise due to the molecular nature of air (some all it Brownian noise) at the average eardrum is effectively white noise at a level of between 6dB SPL and 8.5dB SPL. Now, in order to consider the actual audibility of such noise, one must consider the ear's filtering bandwidth vs. the noise density. Interestingly, this puts the threshold of hearing at the most sensitive spot just barely above the atmospheric noise. Bear in mind that the only way to remove this noise is to remove the atmosphere, which is not recommended.

Fact #2: Very few systems, including audiophile systems and in fact pretty much except professional reinforcement systems, will go above 120dB for peaks.

Let us all recall those while we discuss other issues, ok?

In a way that is more academic than practical IMO because differences are reported with music that has at most 110db range, in fact a lot of it is probably below 96db when considering the recording and actual sensitive frequency range anywhere between -20db to -80db.
I would say what is important is hearing sensitivity to the signal of the recording, that is IF subjectively real differences are being identified with normal recordings; but this then indirectly can come back to measurements such as eye pattern/jitter/decay-delay/digital filters with very similar FR/etc that are incredibly difficult to translate to what one hears (case in point there are those stating no audibility difference unless substantially out of measurement criteria - oversimplifying but giving taste of some of the other debates).
Not sure in this context 120db listening is required to prove audibility, after all this is not done with other JND audio tests in general (those I have read).

Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

The kind of skepticism I have for Naim? I can't speak for the whole line, but the one I've experienced belonged to a friend. Its introduction brought hard edge to the upper midrange of his system, and the two absurdly expensive upgrades (both power supplies) did nothing to solve that problem. Softer, more generalized skepticism? I expect mine begins to subside at a price point you would consider below high-end.

Tim

As far as I remember Naim units should not be mixed with many other brands. Naim had system approach - you should listen to an "approved" Naim system to get an adequate opinion. Mixim them with typical speakers and sources is usually a disaster.

The best I listened from them used Naim active crossovers, six equal power amplifiers and Linn speakers without any passive components. Even all the cables were cheap competent cables, you should listen to such system one day! It was long ago, but this system was really enjoyable.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

As far as I remember Naim units should not be mixed with many other brands. Naim had system approach - you should listen to an "approved" Naim system to get an adequate opinion. Mixim them with typical speakers and sources is usually a disaster.

The best I listened from them used Naim active crossovers, six equal power amplifiers and Linn speakers without any passive components. Even all the cables were cheap competent cables, you should listen to such system one day! It was long ago, but this system was really enjoyable.

It may very well have been a compatibility issue, then, but I've subsequently read many reports of similar problems with Naim of that era. Do you have any idea what it was about Naim electronics that was supposed to create the incompatibilities with unapproved sources and speakers?

Tim

 

[Atmasphere]

Lots of gloom and doom but I know my kids both appreciate good sound. They grew up with it. So do some of their friends. Sooner or latter they will end up getting decent gear. My not be high end boutique but I wouldn't call the hobby dead just yet. There are plenty of seeds planted form us old folk.

Rob

We're pretty involved in the local music scene here in the Twin Cities (Mpls/St.Paul). It is evident to me that younger people are interested in good sound, but for the most part simply don't have the money, and so might glean equipment from Goodwill, yard sales and Craigslist. Interestingly enough, if a local band has gotten far enough along to record an album, it is usually 2-channel, and not considered 'arrived' unless the album is on LP. One such band, Policia, has broken out of the local scene and are a good example (meaning that you can find their LP all over the US). Another, Low, has been making LPs for a very long time. So I feel that there is hope, and I think it needs to work the same way as it did when I was a kid- hearing a really good system, something you dream about owning. That's a bit of a trick these days as the dealers have vanished compared to 40 years ago...

 

[Robh3606]

So I feel that there is hope, and I think it needs to work the same way as it did when I was a kid- hearing a really good system, something you dream about owning. That's a bit of a trick these days as the dealers have vanished compared to 40 years ago...

Hello Atmasphere

Same here on the local dealers. You almost have to know someone who has a system to really listen to one these days. When I was a kid I could ride my bike to at least 2 dealers Designatron and Harvy's Sound. They used to lets us hang out and listen to music, fun down to earth guys. I purchased my first real stereo using money I saved from my paper route and my first real job. I was what 16 at the time.

I had so much fun with that rig! Fun Times!

Rob

 

[sasully]

There is something wrong with what's being reported here, because at least one ABX test has identified #22 speaker cables at a fairly short length.

Yup. I read that one too: Lawrence Greenhill's study in Stereo Review , Aug 1983. It's recapped on Roger Russell's fine page on audio wire
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable




and here's a convenient round up of lots of blind tests of varying quality, done on different parts of the playback chain
http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths


There's also this though I haven't read through it and it will probably make me angry if I do, given the source
http://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0

 

[sasully]

Rob,

As far as I know no one said that measurements are not desirable or did not contribute to the progress. Our debate until now only referred to the classical measurements, the limitations of their usual use and their use to establish thresholds of audibility.

Which 'classical measurements' are you referring to here?

Anyway, happy to know the current measurement are not perfect in your opinion - some people consider that they really are and nothing else is needed.

bench tests are measurements, and so are listening tests

What I find is such discussions , over and over, is an underappreciation/negligance/dismissal on the part of 'audiophiles' -- as well as too many gear designers and pros -- of the strength of the various, ubiquitous, perfectly normal psychological biases that confound the accuracy of 'listening' and of 'judging' sound (not to mention other sensory modalities, also affected -- blind taste tests, anyone?). The bottom line is , it's really, really easy to 'fool yourself' into hearing a 'difference' that isn't real. In the face of that glaring fact, to be dissecting the 'perfection' or not of measurements, seems like complaining about a leaky faucet on the Titanic.