Why do we love vinyl more than digital?

[cjfrbw]

Looks like this is turning into a proper "wagging and bragging" thread.

One might argue that SOTA is a marketing handle, not a description of sound quality. Whose art, whose state, and what are they selling?

 

[Steve Williams]

Looks like this is turning into a proper "wagging and bragging" thread.

One might argue that SOTA is a marketing handle, not a description of sound quality. Whose art, whose state, and what are they selling?

I agree Carl

Could someone define for me what a SOTA system is. It seems that a few $30-$35K TTs are perhaps no longer SOTA because of the new AF1 at $100k. Perhaps only owners of the AF1 can have bragging rights to SOTA.

 

[paskinn]

Looks like this is turning into a proper "wagging and bragging" thread.

One might argue that SOTA is a marketing handle, not a description of sound quality. Whose art, whose state, and what are they selling?

I sympathise with that view.I wrote about the 'three million dollar' system specifically to illustrate the point that no normal commercial product will get even near sota.And even if you throw endless money at the issue, you still can't achieve sota, because , well, 'says who?' It always ends with personal opinions.
As for me, I couldn't afford any of it, and even if I could, wouldn't. I prefer a more moderate approach.But I like the idea that people push the limits.

 

[microstrip]

Well my own room sucks as regards acoustics but I don't find that detracting from the fun of listening. My own speakers also aren't as transparent as A R-A's Quads (he had two pairs, arranged at 90 degrees). I didn't find his system particularly dynamic as the Quads don't play loud and the room is cavernous. I do get a lot more fun with my current system but that's just as likely to be because I built it myself and because I'm choosing what to play on it

Well, I have enjoyed your posts about NOS DACs - but I find your answer rather disturbing. If you are just looking for enjoyment fun in a room having acoustics that sucks your are perhaps mostly looking for something that compensates or someway overcomes your acoustics problems. Perhaps you have given the details elsewhere and I did not notice, but what is the system you are using to evaluate DACs?

I have to say I have read many appreciations of A R-A room and yours is the less enthusiastic and critical I have ever seen. Please do not take my comment as a negative one - I always like to know what people think of known SOTA systems as it allows me to weight their opinions.

 

[JackD201]

Making no claims Steve. I see it simply as a 21st century (machining, tooling, materials engineering) Micro-Seiki and all that comes with the M-S design and engineering philosophy that just happens to retail for $100k. It is the pinnacle for those of us who have admired that design and engineering philosophy. For the magnetic bearing guys it might be the top Clearaudios, EAR or Verdiers, the Idler or Rim guys a Saskia, a Shindo, a rim driven VPI or Teres. For suspension guys an SME 30, for mass guys a Goldmund. It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Steve Williams]

Making no claims Steve. I see it simply as a 21st century (machining, tooling, materials engineering) Micro-Seiki and all that comes with the M-S design and engineering philosophy that just happens to retail for $100k. It is the pinnacle for those of us who have admired that design and engineering philosophy. For the magnetic bearing guys it might be the top Clearaudios, EAR or Verdiers, the Idler or Rim guys a Saskia, a Shindo, a rim driven VPI or Teres. For suspension guys an SME 30, for mass guys a Goldmund. It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

Well we were just given to understand that SME30 isn't SOTA. As paskinn says it is all a matter of opinion. I just gate to see guys taken to task by others who feel that their system isn't SOTA. Its all about from wherein come the comments. As Carl implies this has almost become an elitist attitude.

 

[Orb]

I agree Carl

Could someone define for me what a SOTA system is. It seems that a few $30-$35K TTs are perhaps no longer SOTA because of the new AF1 at $100k. Perhaps only owners of the AF1 can have bragging rights to SOTA.

SOTA to me is true non-compromised engineering in both development and implementation of a product (so exceptional engineering knowledge-experience a given) with excellent measurements; and this can be even at more price accessible high end IMO.
As an example SME lower end models are SOTA turntables IMO; both build-sound quality-measurements-processes involved.
McIntosh with their tube MC275 version6 preamp SOTA.

Regarding measurements this does raise an interesting point on how flexible one deems the criteria for excellent measurements, because some architectures will always have some limitations while others that generally have a weaker measurement variable match that of the best in other designs (such as MC275 m6 preamp).
I am yet to see a NOS DAC measure perfectly in the frequency domain to 20hz-20khz (for good reason).
Are certain excellent engineered electrostatics SOTA because of their limitations with low bass unless building a wall...

In some cases it would be fair to consider certain products SOTA such as some electrostatics as a simple example; not sure about Audio Note being SOTA but it is a high end product that for quite a few is stunning for its sound performance and I can accept that (although feel the price could be cheaper but it is a brand thing as well now).

SOTA is not restricted to statement-flagship products IMO and in some cases those may not even be SOTA.
Just my take anyway.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Well we were just given to understand that SME30 isn't SOTA. As paskinn says it is all a matter of opinion. I just gate to see guys taken to task by others who feel that their system isn't SOTA. Its all about from wherein come the comments. As Carl implies this has almost become an elitist attitude.

Hmm I would love to see someone explain why a SME 20/3 is not SOTA.
Appreciate I am using a newish model and this is easier because of engineering improvements over time, or even SME 10 tbh. when it came out.
Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

@microstrip

Very surprised by your take on digital, I must say. Not much do I find to debate on your last post. I also like the (scary) picture

Perhaps you will be also surprised to know that digital is one of the things that attaches me more to the high-end continuous debate and search. I have listened to systems including digital in the more than $50K and I have listened to some aspects of digital with these ultra expensive systems that I could not believe to be possible. And all this using my own good but non audiophile CDs that I know pretty well. Although these playback systems are now surpassed I have not yet listened to anything that could approach these systems in realism. I often ask - what did these particular equipments have that others do not?

But one point is debating our daily listening, the other is debating the ultimate potential of RBCD and vinyl using the SOTA recordings of each. Here , as always on these matters, one's opinion is just a private opinion. However, until I have a CD recording that I find that surpasses in sound quality the Sheffield Harry James or my old Schubert lieder LP of Wintereise sang by Pears, with Britten at the piano, my heart tells me to vote with the vinyl lobby. At less using my current system.

FWIW, the digital systems I am referring to are the old DCS stack and the previous generation Metronome Kalista-DAC system.

 

[cjfrbw]

SOTA is a movable feast. It generally moves to whatever is most current and most expensive.

As seasoned audiophiles tend to know from experience, that is not always what it is cracked up to be.

As a descriptor, I would not hang my hat on it.

I have been out of the digital game for years, am happy with things from ages ago, but the generational half life of SOTA digital at incredible prices never ceases to amaze me, like an ever churning rapids.

It is quite similar on other commodities boards. Anticipate, spend, own, sell, anticipate, spend, own, sell, anticipate, spend, own, sell, argue, brag, anticipate, spend, own, sell. I guess that is why an actual developed philosophy of sound helps, it tends to quiet the background noise.

 

[Orb]

SOTA is a movable feast. It generally moves to whatever is most current and most expensive.

As seasoned audiophiles tend to know from experience, that is not always what it is cracked up to be.

As a descriptor, I would not hang my hat on it.

I have been out of the digital game for years, am happy with things from ages ago, but the generational half life of SOTA digital at incredible prices never ceases to amaze me, like an ever churning rapids.

It is quite similar on other commodities boards. Anticipate, spend, own, sell, anticipate, spend, own, sell, anticipate, spend, own, sell, argue, brag, anticipate, spend, own, sell. I guess that is why an actual developed philosophy of sound helps, it tends to quiet the background noise.

So why is the MC275 v6 power amp not SOTA or 20/3 SME turntable?
I appreciate there is no definitive answer and perceptions/views are different for each of us in this, but argument of incredible increasing prices does not mean SOTA is becoming more expensive to me.
In fact case in point is the design and engineering in the Magico S1.
For digital SOTA is found in products around the $2-$3k mark (only a very few tbh).
I would say my own DAC is not SOTA and cost a fair bit more than these.
Cheers
Orb

 

[mep]

Orb-You keep referring to the MC275 as a preamp. Are you sure you don't mean power amp?

 

[Orb]

Orb-You keep referring to the MC275 as a preamp. Are you sure you don't mean power amp?

LOL yeah good point, power amp hahahah, oh man
In my defense I was being nagged at while typing, so thought I better pay attention there instead of here
Yes MC275 v6 power amp.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

HiFi-News measurements for the latest model of McIntosh MC275 m6.
Key point being tube design, and in this context it is SOTA.

Dynamic power <1%THD 8/4/2/1: 115w/110w/145w/110w
Output impedance (20hz-20khz): 0.19-0.26ohm
Frequency Response (20hz-100khz): -0.20dB to -4.3dB
A-wtd S/N ratio (re 0dBW/75W): 93.5dB / 112.3dB
Distortion (20hz-20kz, 10w/8ohm): 0.019%-0.12%.

So not only exceptional measurements for a tube power amp, but excellent-exceptional engineering both in design and implementation, and importantly well received nearly everywhere (regions) in terms of high end sound quality.
This around $5k?

Cheers
Orb

 

[Steve Williams]

And I will bet you that you'll get an argument from many here that it isn't what they consider to be SOTA.

 

[mep]

And I will bet you that you'll get an argument from many here that it isn't what they consider to be SOTA.

Does it sound like SOTA or just measure like SOTA? I have not heard it so I don't know the answer to that question.

 

[TBone]

with digital there are times when there is the absense of sound. specific digital data can represent the absense of sound. with analog this is not possible. which turns out to be one of the greatest attributes of analog. what goes on musically deep into the supposed noise floor of analog results in a significant amount of information.

if you listen to a recording mastered digitally verses one that is mastered to analog you hear farther into the ambient field with analog. digital has a harder time with low level information.

So very true, yet most audiophiles will "concede" that digital has the lower noise floor.

Not the case with my turntable, which offers far superior low level detail retrieval when compared to any digital player I've tried. Actually, I found that many digital players offer relatively poor noise floor characteristics, esp SACD players, in which you can hear low level details get lost behind some digital hash/fog.

tb1

 

[microstrip]

So why is the MC275 v6 power amp not SOTA (...) ?
(...)

Easy. You can pick any of these:

1. The MC275 v6 was an heretic change in the great original design, modifying it just to have better specifications. Even the famous separate feedback winding that we have read a lot about in the past was discarded.
2. Tubes do not need LEDs to glow.
3. It is gold plated, not chrome.
4. It misses the speaker screw terminals.
5. The old MC275 using point-to-point hand wiring was the real SOTA!

 

[mep]

Easy. You can pick any of these:

1. The MC275 v6 was an heretic change in the great original design, modifying it just to have better specifications. Even the famous separate feedback winding that we have read a lot about in the past was discarded.
2. Tubes do not need LEDs to glow.
3. It is gold plated, not chrome.
4. It misses the speaker screw terminals.
5. The old MC275 using point-to-point hand wiring was the real SOTA!

But which one sounds better Micro? I remember reading that McIntosh did not wind the output transformers the same way as the original MC275. It was never clear to me if they did that because it would have been too expensive to wind them the same way as the originals or if they actually thought the new output transformers sounded better. Oh, you also left out that the new MC275 accepts XLR connections. And do you really pine for those old screw terminals?

 

[microstrip]

But which one sounds better Micro? I remember reading that McIntosh did not wind the output transformers the same way as the original MC275. It was never clear to me if they did that because it would have been too expensive to wind them the same way as the originals or if they actually thought the new output transformers sounded better. Oh, you also left out that the new MC275 accepts XLR connections. And do you really pine for those old screw terminals?

Mep,
I hope that it was clear I was joking and I have no experience with the MC275 mk6. Besides I am not a McIntosh expert, but I love the blue panels!