Proof that cables Do make a difference

[Rutgar]

From Chris at ASC... for starters, how about placing the speakers 29% of the way into the room, same ratio across? They like this placement, and it certainly worked wonders for me.

I spent the last 4 weeks maticulously moving 400 pound speakers around my room, working on optimizing their placement (as well as my seating). My room is fairly large at 16 x 23 x 10. I found that the 29% rule, the Golden Ratio, etc., all place the speakers and listening position at a completely ridiculously small grouping in the center of the room. And it is horrible for any Bass support. Yes, the upper bass, mid, and high frequency response was smooth, and not colored by the room bounderies. But I'm sorry, if the lower bass region isn't there, then you're missing a BIG chunk of the music and the listening experience. Also, in this confined positioning, I felt like my MM-2's were two giant Monoliths, hovering over me in an imposingly, menacing way. Not too mention, it was like listening to music in a tunnel.

I did find the Rule of Thirds useful, using the 3rd of the distance from front of the speaker to the wall behind the speakers to set the distance out from the side wall (not 1/3 of the width of room). This turned out to be my best compromise. I did have to deal with some coloration issues off of the first reflection point, due to the speakers being so close to the side walls. But an RPG 'BAD' Panel seems to have worked nicely for taming this. I also had to work a bit on the toe-in, since the speakers are fairly wide apart. But not too much, since the size of the room allowed me to place the listening position appropriately back.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

There is so my hype about cables out there these days that it's just amazing how it continues to exist, despite the laws of electricity. Speaker cable is way shorter than one electrical wavelength at audio frequencies. Therefore it doesn't behave like an RF transmission line where matching and VSWR, impedance, etc., become critical and paramount to successful operation.

Any decent-sized conductor, big enough to carry the current for the damping of the drivers, will pass all of the audio bandwidth unharmed, over the modest distances in a home installation.

The most noticeable difference is with undersized cable. If the impedance rises sufficiently to reduce damping, certain types of speakers will sound different and their impulse response may suffer. The cable's job is to deliver sufficient current to counter the back EMF from the woofers. Any heavy-duty 12awg or heavier cable will do the job for most home hi-fi systems of average power levels. A heavy cable effectively reduces the distance from the amp outputs to the speakers. Any resistance in the cable reduces the amplifier's control over the woofers, making some systems sound 'fat' or have 'overhang' (resonance/ringing) bass.

Any difference in cables becomes measureable at RF frequencies, but we don't listen to RF as it's not part of the audio spectrum. I do have a scientific paper somewhere in my archives, which makes the case for differences in cables, showing how complex waveforms emerge differently, but the differences are in the megahertz region and this way beyond the range of speakers and hearing.

I believe that folks are wasting enormous sums on 'boutique' wires for this reason. That said, I will relate the following anecdote:

Back in the 1970s, we had a pair of stereo speakers in a large cafeteria, fed by a stereo receiver in a storage room about 170' away. The cable run was about 200' as it followed the contours of the walls instead of a diagonal run. It was #24awg solid strand phone wire! Two years later, during some renovations, the phone wire was replaced with 16awg zip cord. The next time I heard the system play, it was as if they'd added tweeters. There was a dramatic increase in high frequency output. The reason for this was two extremes: the long run and the extreme thinness of the wire conductors. The skin effect, distributed capacitance and impedance of the cable was very high in this case, so the difference was obvious when those parameters were reduced.

I myself went from 14awg twisted pair to #8awg battery cable wire for my woofers. Yes, I heard a difference. There was less bass after the cable upgrade. The drivers were following the amplifier signal more faithfully because the cables could carry the current much better, thus reducing mechanical overshoot, thereby reducing amplitude at some bass frequencies.

This is all that is needed:



The test of a good cable is to use a dual trace oscilloscope. Input A measures the output terminals of the amplifier. Input B measures the other end of the cable, at the speaker terminals. Run the scope in sum mode with channel B inverted. If both signals null out, then your cable is delivering all the music presented at the amplifier terminals.


Now, another tidbit, about valve amplifiers: Valves have a unique property because the Back EMF from the loudspeakers finds its way into the amplifier's feedback loop and gets fed through the amplifier again, as a subtle echo, or reverberance. This is one of the key reasons why tubes have a 'pleasant' sound (I didn't say 'accurate' because this phenomena departs from the input signal of the program source). The other, more commonly known reason is that the damping factor is very, very low, typically only 1 in a matched impedance transformer-based output. The resonances and response anomalies of speaker systems are set free with this type of drive, producing very warm, resonant sounds, particularly in the bass region. Some people like this as a matter of taste. 32 years ago, I had a supervisor who had a pair of Altec Voice of the Theater speakers that he swore (to him) sounded better than anything else he'd ever heard, anywhere. He played them for me one evening, when I visited him to look at a reel to reel deck that he was selling. I was unimpressed. They lacked any meaningful high end, bass in the bottom two octaves was completely absent and the rest of the system response was like a rollercoaster. Ugh. I have another friend who has two Klipsch horns dating back to about the late 1950s. Similar situation there too. But he is happy with them to this day.

I went through my horn phase in the 60s-70s, building all sorts of horn-loaded contraptions from various plans I'd obtained over the years. They were loud, but sounded awful. At one point, I was 100% horns, from top to bottom. It sounded loud and just awful to listen to. Gradually, I made my way back to more conventional systems with direct-firing drivers. I became very much aware of time alignment of LF, MF and HF drivers to obtain the most realistic transient attacks. I began to design speaker systems with a straight-line approach to driver placement. Subwoofer placement matters. In fact it matters so much, I decided to have a whole array of subwoofers all in line with the rest of the drivers. I like a nice, clear, open, spacious sound, like electrostatics or planars, but I like it to go very loud, too. It can be achieved, but cables would be the last thing on my list toward that goal. My point is, cable type and brand has a miniscule effect, compared to other things you can do, like positioning speakers and subs, not to mention acoustic treatments. The difference between sounding like a concert PA system and a pair of Wilson Sophias can be the result of going from improper or no room treatment, to good room treatment. No speaker will sound good if there's a 40dB swing in amplitude caused by the room's reflections (comb filtering). Just get the cable that will carry all of the current and you'll be fine.

 

[Randall Smith]

It's kind of hard to believe that someone would make a set of cables a higher priority than they do treating the room and properly placing the speakers. Having cables on an equal plane even seems to be a stretch to me!

 

[MylesBAstor]

It's kind of hard to believe that someone would make a set of cables a higher priority than they do treating the room and properly placing the speakers. Having cables on an equal plane even seems to be a stretch to me!

Well maybe one has to hear what happens when a speaker cable "locks" into a system. Cables can make or break the best high-end audio systems.

 

[FrantzM]

Well maybe one has to hear what happens when a speaker cable "locks" into a system. Cables can make or break the best high-end audio systems.

In Audio reproduction like in any systems there is an hierarchy. Whether one refuses to admit that evidence is one's prerogative and rights to be wrong .. It is not a matter of life and death so....

You take a car first you make sure the engine is properly tuned ... then you can start choosing what brand of Gasoline you put in .. Exxo, Shell, Citgo, etc .. and additives.. Not the other way around ...

For the discussion/debate at hand one supposes the use of adequate cables ... If one takes a Ga 30, 10 ft speaker cable in a system with 1000 watts amplifiers driving an Apogee Scintilla ... It will sound bad , this will break the system.. figuratively and literally because the cable will simply burn at anything approaching 100 watts to the speakers ... However once the level of electrical adequacy is met .. that is cable with low inductance, low capacitance and low resistance ... for example the cable Basspig showed .. It is very difficult for one and most an audiophile, to believe that Speaker positioning and room treatments do not take precedence ... Sighted or Blind the test will be conclusive ... When that is taken care of then one can fancy the rest of esoterica .. Your favorite speaker cable with a price similar to your speaker, Expensive Power cable with price similar to the amp and IC following the same rules , etc .. I will even grant you to, then, try your favorite precious (mpingo or other) thingies or expensive dots ...

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

@ myles... definitely agree. I've heard too many high-end systems and recording studios where the speakers are positioned properly, the room acoustics are elaborate, and all I can hear are the cables restricting everything.

 

[terryj]

You mean you are able to walk into a new room, with a new system (to you ) speakers, amps, source etc etc, and hear that the cables are restricting everything??

Wow.

Of course I dare not mention the double blind test word do I.

I don't mind (all that much) the normal run of the mill audiophile being as dogmatic about cable audibilty on forums, it's kind of the nature of the beast.

But to hear this level of statement from an audio reviewer (or publisher), well no wonder the wagon just rolls on.

Instead of a section of the forum where a one on one debate happens, maybe we could have another section?? A section where these audiophile claims are put to the test?

there ya go, it seems that one of the aims of this forum is to elevate matters, to rise above the normal dross encountered on the usual sites. Dross like 'cables are so audible and important that you cannot have a pair of speakers that cost 20k without spending 50% of that value on cables'.

And of course, dbt's are usually discounted because of (perhaps at times correct) reservations about how they were conducted. BUT, with the collective level of ability available here, we won't encounter THOSE problems will we.

There ya go, why don't some people actually man up and show us these huge things they can easily claim to hear?

FWIW, I call BS on these claims. NOT that cables are necessarily identical (tho I reckon any differences are completely negligable) but on any concept that cables are the make break point of a system (barring normal engineering considerations that may apply in a specific case, and if so solve by normal EE methods).

It will be a walk in the park for someone who can walk into a new room and new system and hear how the cables are throttling a system no???

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

@ terryj

With a little training, it's possible to characterize, meaning to describe systematically, and to inform others how a particular cable sounds, what it is doing well, and what it's not doing well. In some cases, it's even possible to figure out the brand of the cable by careful listening.

Of course room acoustics, placement, etc., are important, but assuming those under control, or even if they can't be controlled, cabling is a major contributor to the musical experience.

If you came over to my house, or to a helpful dealer, and he swapped in cables from, say, three different manufacturers, you'll experience how each type of cable changed the voicing and performance of the system.

Think of how box speakers, horns, electrostats, enclosure-free speakers all play music, but each "family" has its particular distrinctive characteristics.

Think about cabling: there are several rather different "families" here as well: the flat Nordost, the woven Wireworld, the Cardas spiral, and AudioQuest with their dialectric charging and air tubes, etc. There are other manufacturers, of course, and I didn't mean to leave them out, but the idea here is that cables fall into design families, much as speakers and electronics do.

Would you have any trouble distinguishing a conventional boxed driver speaker, or a horn, from, say, an electrostat, with your eyes closed? (This is a new definition of "double blind testing": each eye has a patch over it). I doubt it.

The basic EE considerations were incorporated into the designs decades ago, and all of these vendors have continued to improve and refine the sound over the years.

In the case of the Wilson Sashas, $6-7 K on appropriate cabling, compared to a $27K price for the speakers, is about 25%, which seems about right to me. Spending 10% on the cables puts you into a rather lower performance design architecture and materials, such that, yes, the speaker won't be capable of doing nearly as well as with the higher-priced cables. The 10% cables will be good, but the 25% cables will be over-the-top.

If you swap these cables, you'll think you have two similar speakers, but one will seem to be a couple of models, so to speak, better,

If some aspect of the sound didn't make it through the wires, it certainly can't magically appear from the speakers.

YMMV, but that's the general idea. Borrow a couple of sets of cables from a friend or dealer, try this out and see how it works for you.

 

[JackD201]

Terry,

What's harder for me to believe is that there are people that actually believe that all folks that take cables seriously are actually stupid enough not to deal with all the other basics first.

Jack

 

[FrantzM]

Nicholas

Again your experience is unusual.. If you use electrically adequate cable say a good pair of 10 ft 6 Gau copper cable with the Wilson X-2 ... NO One on this planet will mistake its sound for the Sasha with any of the currently available $30 K speaker cables or the $50 K models waiting to appear once the economy rebounds ... Can't happen, No Sire, Not on this planet.

We are clear that speakers are vastly different a speaker is considered flat when its response is within +or - 3 dB. So indeed , we know and have experienced how different they do sound but cables ? I will even grant you that there are differences.. I will not grant you they are always audible but hey...... I feel generous ...Ok but to make of a Maxx3 with good Copper wire sound like a Sasha you need more than cables.. you need an equalizer and even there ...

P.S. And What is so special about Higher Priced Cable? Higher Price now automatically equate with better ?

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

@ FrantzM... I'd be really interested in someone listening to X-2s or MAXX3, etc., with 6 gauge wire, and then swapping them out for high-end Nordost, AQ, and reporting the results.

If someone sends me spade-lug terminated 6 ga, I'll be happy to run them and see how they sound.

Higher price doesn't automatically equate with better, we all know that. Some vendors deliver better or even much better value than others at a given price-point.

But within a given manufacturer's product line, you'll see that there will be 4-5 main themes of cable construction, and various grades of material are used from the least to most expensive products. And yes, in this situation, the more expensive products improve the sound quality pretty much in direct relation to their cost.

Keep in mind that the people designing and listening to these cables, at the manufacturer's end, are really, really capable. And they've heard how their products sound on just about every imaginable speaker. Ask them how they think their products sound, on a given speaker, compared to simple wire, and it will probably be an edifiying experience.

Do they have opinions about cables?

Sure, but these opinions are based upon a lot of engineering, dozens of designs, and listening, listening, listening, starting with the raw spools of wire that come in from subcontractors.

They try something out, they listen, they make changes and listen again.

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

@ BP (do you like bass?) How about looking at the amplitude and phase transfer functions with, say, a $30K spectrum analyzer. I think you'd seem some very interesting results, some of which start with the first inch of cabling, others of which vary according to the length.

The voltage/time domain test you describe isn't very sensitive, and assuming you're doing this with differential amplifiers, what's their CMRR?

 

[terryj]

Terry,

What's harder for me to believe is that there are people that actually believe that all folks that take cables seriously are actually stupid enough not to deal with all the other basics first.

Jack

Hijack (hahaha, little joke, geddit??) Well I find it hard to believe that some take cables seriously, but hey that's just me. What I don't get is that I made no mention in my post about 'doing cables rather than the basics first' ??? So it seems a little non sequiter for you to say that.

@ terryj

With a little training, it's possible to characterize, meaning to describe systematically, and to inform others how a particular cable sounds, what it is doing well, and what it's not doing well. In some cases, it's even possible to figure out the brand of the cable by careful listening.

As I hinted at, then a dbt would be a cakewalk for you no? On your own system, in your own room.

It will be a first will it not?

Of course room acoustics, placement, etc., are important, but assuming those under control, or even if they can't be controlled, cabling is a major contributor to the musical experience.

It is your use of words like 'major' that tend to bring out the skeptic in me. Descriptions like you can walk into a completely new system, and somehow, tease out the sound of the cable over and above that of the speakers, room acoustics, source amps and dacs, or whatever other audiophile 'importances' exist.

A mighty skill I would have thought. And, to my knowledge, a skill no-one yet has been able to demonstrate.

Sorry nicholas, but I'm 'calling' you on it.

If you came over to my house, or to a helpful dealer, and he swapped in cables from, say, three different manufacturers, you'll experience how each type of cable changed the voicing and performance of the system.

I wonder why that would be?? See, this is the trouble. Not at ANY point have you even begun to acknowledge the possible presence of factors other than cable audibility. For the sake of this discussion, let us assume that you can, as easily as you proclaim, hear the differences between cables. Notwithstanding that, for honesty's sake should you not make mention of confounding factors?

Are you able to admit that a demonstration conducted as you said above, can have outcomes due to reasons OTHER than cable sound?? Are you able to see that? (just a first baby step here)

Think of how box speakers, horns, electrostats, enclosure-free speakers all play music, but each "family" has its particular distrinctive characteristics.

from this basic fact, you are extrapolating that in a similar vein cables differences are explained or shown to exist?? really???

Think about cabling: there are several rather different "families" here as well: the flat Nordost, the woven Wireworld, the Cardas spiral, and AudioQuest with their dialectric charging and air tubes, etc. There are other manufacturers, of course, and I didn't mean to leave them out, but the idea here is that cables fall into design families, much as speakers and electronics do.

Yes, a nice list of all the fluff marketing claims. Thank you.

Would you have any trouble distinguishing a conventional boxed driver speaker, or a horn, from, say, an electrostat, with your eyes closed? (This is a new definition of "double blind testing": each eye has a patch over it). I doubt it.

I would hope not. But this you claim as proof of cable audibility?? Really??

Are these the sum total of your proof (apart from the usual one on forums of 'I hear it'?)

In the case of the Wilson Sashas, $6-7 K on appropriate cabling, compared to a $27K price for the speakers, is about 25%, which seems about right to me. Spending 10% on the cables puts you into a rather lower performance design architecture and materials, such that, yes, the speaker won't be capable of doing nearly as well as with the higher-priced cables. The 10% cables will be good, but the 25% cables will be over-the-top.

I agree, with a slight modification...the 10% cables will be over the top. Oh, maybe you may have meant a different definition of 'over the top' than I??

Still, I thought the old industry rule of thumb was 10% of the system cost on cables, but then again I could be behind the times. I hadn't realised that it had moved on and is now 25% of the speaker cost.

If some aspect of the sound didn't make it through the wires, it certainly can't magically appear from the speakers.

Indeed. What part will not make it thru the wires??

Can i ask you, do you see any part of your role as a reviewer to educate??

Then why not do a dbt?? If you truly feel cables are such a significant part of the system, would it not be to the benefit of your readers to show (at least, you cannot show preference to others) how easily/accurately/truthfully it is to hear cables??

If a dbt was conducted with the combined help of THIS forum, then (at first glance) we could reasonably feel sure that it was conducted at least halfway correctly.

Then your successful test would carry a bit of weight no??

It would be of interest to a great number of audiophiles (natch), so I see it as a great article opportunity.

Win win, with truth the victor.

 

[FrantzM]

@ BP (do you like bass?) How about looking at the amplitude and phase transfer functions with, say, a $30K spectrum analyzer. I think you'd seem some very interesting results, some of which start with the first inch of cabling, others of which vary according to the length.

The voltage/time domain test you describe isn't very sensitive, and assuming you're doing this with differential amplifiers, what's their CMRR?

Interesting .. Would you be so kind as to show us the results of such tests you would have conducted?

On the spade lugs for 6 AWG, not common but they exist and since we are audiophiles, what about those cryogenically treated model:

available HERE

Now I have compared Nordost Valhalla with 6 AWG cable using non cryo lugs, not spade lugs... I could not tell the difference when knowledge was removed ... Do try it yourself and you may be quite surprised .. then again YMMV ... you could be very unique

 

[DonH50]

Network analyzer, Nicholas? I think you are asking for a VNA sweep... Of course, you then have to post-process the data with the right source and driving impedances. I didn't read the whole thread so apologize if I am repeating others' comments, but I'm not sure a discussion of the impact of cables in a system is worthwhile without knowing the source and load conditions. Certainly not a technical discussion... To the listener, it's a closed system, with no way to isolate the cable's intrinsic response from its interactions with the other impedances. Of course, to the listener, that does not really matter, as he (she, it, whatever) will through trial and error find the cable that works best with those impedances and the rest of the system transfer function to optimize the sound. - Don

 

[Nicholas Bedworth]

@DonH50... I mentioned "spectrum" analyzer somewhere, not sure about "network" analyzer.

@FrantzM... one of the approaches recommended by cable designers, to get an idea of the intrinsic limitations of a cable (and they'll be the first to offer that all cables have deficiencies, just some have less than others), is to use, say,3 lengths of the same cable for listening tests. Their experience is that (for the cable architecture they're using) the best results will be with the short lengths, and that the deficiencies become increasingly obvious as the cables get longer. The good parts of the cable don't accumulate with length, but the bad parts do.

@FrantzM... the lugs were part of the origin of my remark that some problems in cables show up in the first inch, namely the lugs, the plating, the binding posts. You can get coloration there which will be preseent on top of whatever else happens.

@terryj... most definitely the role of the reviewer is to educate, and the idea here is to communicate my listening experiences with cables.

In my reference system, could I tell the difference between three brands of cables? Of course, and so could you, probably without any training at all. And you could hear some of the differences just standing off to the side, in another room. Others are more subtle, and of course the fine polishing of the sonic experience is what makes the difference between tolerating and loving the sound.

Cable differences can be, and usually are, far from negligible, even in relatively inexpensive products. One of Dave Salz's fun demos is the before and after of using good cabling in a boom box! It wows the crowds, who previously were unaware of what a difference cabling could make, and also that they could hear it so easily.

Your ears (assuming they haven't been subjected to too much damage over the years) meaning really your ability to hear and discriminate, is probably way, way better than you'd believe.

No double blind testing is required to determine if the sun has come up over the horizon yet on a clear day, or even on a murky day... just the estimated time of arrival will be a little less precise.

If you prefer, we can all wear blindfolds... as mentioned earlier, with both eyes covered, that should be the equivalent of double-blind.

And, yes, there is often a house sound to some cable brands. If you're familiar with it in a reference listening environment, and then are exposed to the same brands in the wild, it's pretty easy to spot. So are lousy amps and speakers. And some problems come from the room.

Each contributes its own set of toxic effects. What I'm referring to here are several well-known musical venues, some high-end recording studios, etc., where the sound is nowhere what it should/could be.

When one complains to those guilty of such offenses, their response is usually, we know, we know, but that's what the client wanted, which is another set of problems

Listen and you will believe

 

[Steve Williams]

The good parts of the cable don't accumulate with length, but the bad parts do.

Nicholas

are you serious with this post????

FWIW when I bought my Valhalla speaker cables I was told just the opposite from one of the lead techs at Nordost

 

[DonH50]

Yes, you did say spectrum analyzer to look at the amplitude and phase transfer functions of a cable; I thought perhaps you meant network analyzer instead since that's the usual tool for that. You can do it with a spectrum analyzer and sweep generator, too, just more work. Sorry I was unclear.

No worries! Or no more than usual... - Don

 

[MylesBAstor]

Interesting .. Would you be so kind as to show us the results of such tests you would have conducted?

On the spade lugs for 6 AWG, not common but they exist and since we are audiophiles, what about those cryogenically treated model:

available HERE

Now I have compared Nordost Valhalla with 6 AWG cable using non cryo lugs, not spade lugs... I could not tell the difference when knowledge was removed ... Do try it yourself and you may be quite surprised .. then again YMMV ... you could be very unique

Hi Frantz,

Years ago, Joe DePhillips of Discovery Cable made up identical lengths of his cable; one was outfitted wtih WBT RCAs and the other with the new all copper (meaning no Nickel, a ferromagnetic material) RCAs. Everyone who listened preferred the non-nickel plated Clearaudio plugs.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Nicholas

are you serious with this post????

FWIW when I bought my Valhalla speaker cables I was told just the opposite from one of the lead techs at Nordost

Actually Steve, that was something that George Cardas suggested to me many years ago eg. did a one meter length say of manufacturer A's IC sound the same as a 4 meter length? Some cables do; some don't (for instance you can't get less than an 8 ft length MIT or transparent speaker cables; at that time, I'm not sure now if it's true, that the cable's sonics were optimized for this length). That was maybe ten years ago and designs have most certainly improved.

In fact, I was going to do a review years ago about the issue and listen to different lengths of the same cable and evaluate its effects upon the sound. Obviously, there's lot's of variables involved between different manufacturers such as geometry, materials, construction, resistance, capacitance, impedance, LCR, at what frequency the cable changes from inductive to resistive, etc. that affect the final outcome.