Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

Which is more valuable in judging the quality of reproduction? The ability to differentiate between two womens' voices (or even the same woman with or without a cold?), or the ability to hear that it is a recording of a woman's voice in a big space?

Tim

Tim,

You are creating stereotypes based on a short quotation of a text you have not read in full. Spaciousness does not mean only a big space, but also envelopment and localization. And differentiation can contribute a lot to it! Remember it is all an illusion... ;)
 
"This is your only warning"

I'm glad I'm only getting one warning. I think I should alert you to the fact that I'm in training to set a new world record for the longest gramatically correct sentence in the English language. If you can remember what I wrote at the beginning of my sentence by the time you get to reading the end of it, I've got a lot more work to do.

which of the many short sentences are you referring to?
 
Micro, I have never understood this, for example, how could a person who plays a flute their whole life not be the best to identify how well the recording of the flute sounded, or is it that they have the wrong perspective....the wrong end of the flute is hwere their ears are...I don't know, its just plain curious to me.

Simple, the sound heard by the musician is different from what the audience hears. Perspective matters a lot. This should come as no surprise. Usually people are astonished the first time they hear a recording of their own voice. "Do I really sound like that to other people?" Imagine how you'd react if you'd never seen yourself in a mirror and saw a photograph of yourself for the first time. For people who play instruments that are in direct contact with their body such as a violin or viola, sound is transmitted to their ears right through their flesh and bones and that creates an entirely different sound to them. However, usually musicians attend concerts, listen to their instructors demonstrating on other instruments and manage to integrate what they hear as an audience with what they hear as players. It's often best to take someone knowledgeable with you when shopping for a new instrument and trying it out. Their opinion of the sound of that instrument may be different from yours.
 
I stick with the perceptual reality, you with just the physical reality

There's a nagging doubt that I'd like to clear up. In all these discussions, I have naively assumed that when a 'subjectivist' talks about this setup being "perceptually" better than that one, or whatever, they still hold to the idea that, ultimately, it's a physical, deterministic system they're talking about. Is this actually the case? Because I'm beginning to get the message that says that placebo (for want of a better word) is also part of the "perception". So when an 'objectivist' comes up against a 'subjectivist', they're not talking about the same thing at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm beginning to wonder if the subjectivist is also including the brand's reputation, the appearance of the equipment, colour of the walls, weather, time of day and phase of the moon in his assessment of a system, in some shifty, slithery "it's good if I perceive it to be good" sort of way. The objectivist says that active speakers X are good because of technical points A, B and C (and that they also sound good) but the subjectivist seems to be saying that passive speakers brand Y are better because he "perceives" them to be better and that, for example, his superstitious distrust of op amps and DSP, plus golden childhood memories of listening to similar passive speakers on his uncle's knee, are perfectly valid parts of that perception. That would be OK, I suppose, except that he may omit to mention those particular superstitions and golden memories in his assessment.
 
This is your only warning"

I'm glad I'm only getting one warning. I think I should alert you to the fact that I'm in training to set a new world record for the longest gramatically correct sentence in the English language. If you can remember what I wrote at the beginning of my sentence by the time you get to reading the end of it, I've got a lot more work to do.

You're doing pretty well. I had to read it a couple of times.

I don't see any dichotomy between being objective and being subjective about studying sound and sound reproducing systems. Since the sounds we hear are like all other sensory stimuli our reaction to our environment it is subjective. But it is also entirely reasonable to try to analyze those stimuli to understand what makes one seem different from another. Since the original promise of high fidelity was to exactly reproduce the auditory experience of hearing music (the real thing, not the already artifical recreation of it) the scientific method for studying it seems pretty straightforward. Study the physics of the stimuli, acousics and study the ability to perceive and remember the stimuli, psychoacoustics. Combining sufficient knowledge of the two sciences, the criteria for reproducing the stimuli with sufficient accuracy to recreate the sujective reaction to it are established. The engineering to meet those criteria and the testing to determine that they have been met are also indicated. And therein lies the rub. The scientific knowledge base for both is entirely inadequate. Read a book on acoustics and you may be even more confused by the end of it than you were before you started. What you'll get mostly is an incoherent tapestry of parameters that are arcane, sometimes self contradictory, often limited to certain cases while not applicable to others, and fail to impart a true understanding of either sound or how sound interacts with rooms. At the other end, knowledge of psychoacoustics is also inadequate. Even something as simple as how the brain determines directionality isn't understood. In that example the proof of inadequacy is easy. Binaural recording meets every one of the three criteria usually specified and yet the system is a failure. More complex aspects of perception of music are also not understood. How do spatial and temporal variables affect the perception of tonality or perceived power of the source for example. So people called objectivists have a long way to go before any engineering criteria or test data will be of real use.

On the other hand so called subjectivists have no more insight than objecivists do. They seem to grope endlessly trying anything and everything they can find, think of, imagine. They come up with the wildest most preposterous theories to explain the rationale behind what they do. In a sense when they start espousing their latest pet explanations they are attempting to be scientists without science. Their arguments quickly get very tiresome for me. One of the most amusing however who is an endless source of hilarity is May Belt in England. She'll advise you for example to water the plants in your listening room with unfluoridated water. She reminds me of a commune called "The University of the Trees" in Hollister California I once read about a long time ago. They believed that if you worshiped their small pyramids it would keep you healthy and your car's engine in tune. Anyone want to buy some "tees" to lift their wires off the floor?

Yes.

I'm merely trying to match the world record for the shortest grammatically correct sentence. My training is complete. :)

Tim
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm beginning to wonder if the subjectivist is also including the brand's reputation, the appearance of the equipment, colour of the walls, weather, time of day and phase of the moon in his assessment of a system, in some shifty, slithery "it's good if I perceive it to be good" sort of way.

Perception is reality, the subjectivist accepts this.

The objectivist says that active speakers X are good because of technical points A, B and C (and that they also sound good)

How does the 'objectivist' select particular technical points A, B and C rather than say technical drawbacks D,E, and F? Answer - he's at the mercy of his (subjective) perception of what technical points make for a 'good' piece of kit. Neither the subjectivist nor the objectivist gets to bypass perception, its all we have to go on. Of course the objectivist will object (he is an objectivist after all) to this characterization of his means of choice of parameters as being so subjective, but his protestations do nothing to invalidate the truth.
 
Objectivists are not immune from their own superstitions either Groucho. I could set up a blind test between an active and a passive system where results would be the same as a round of coin tosses. Dogma exists in both camps.
 
Tim,

You are creating stereotypes based on a short quotation of a text you have not read in full. Spaciousness does not mean only a big space, but also envelopment and localization. And differentiation can contribute a lot to it! Remember it is all an illusion... ;)

I can't win this one, micro, if I put a few more qualifying words around it, I get accused of hedging my bets, of being evasive. If I apply a bit of judicious shorthand and roll it all up into "spaciousness" (I considered "sound stage," would that have been better?) I have oversimplified. Ah well... But if you're concerned that I'm leaping to conclusions based on a short quotation, there is a very simple solution to that -- use longer quotations. You know we don't need the whole text, but we do need enough context to understand what Toole was talking about instead of relying on a short snippet followed by your interpretation of what Toole was talking about.

Tim
 
Objectivists are not immune from their own superstitions either Groucho. I could set up a blind test between an active and a passive system where results would be the same as a round of coin tosses. Dogma exists in both camps.

Make it an engineered active system -- and by that I mean one in which a top active designer chooses the amps, the crossovers, the drivers, and delivers them as a complete product, not a user-assembled system -- vs the same cabinets and drivers with passive crossovers designed for the system, driven by any existing consumer amplifier of your choice (no custom designs), and I'd love to take that test.

But could you set up a test that would deliver "no difference?" Sure.

Tim
 
There's a nagging doubt that I'd like to clear up. In all these discussions, I have naively assumed that when a 'subjectivist' talks about this setup being "perceptually" better than that one, or whatever, they still hold to the idea that, ultimately, it's a physical, deterministic system they're talking about. Is this actually the case?

You haven't been naive at all. More often than not, "perceptual" gets left out of the conversation altogether, and the things that we perceive as better are simply presented as "better." As if preference = superiority. Often "better" is presented as more resolving, more musical, more natural, more life-like, more...my personal favorite is closer to the original event, but, more often than not, any notion that any of the above is just one man's opinion is conspicuously left out of the argument. I don't even think the lack of true subjectivity is far below the surface of this perceptual discussion we're having here. The argument that's being made is that listening is a combination of the physical properties of the sound being generated by the system and the (immeasurable) ways humans perceive that sound. Has anyone said that these perceptions are completely personal and, therefore, superior performance is purely subjective, ie: an opinion? See much in the way of MHO, YMMV, etc? No, you're not being naive, and while you've found one participant here willingly admitting that brand, box and reputation are factors in the perception of sound, you'll find few others.

Tim
 
The argument that's being made is that listening is a combination of the physical properties of the sound being generated by the system and the (immeasurable) ways humans perceive that sound. Has anyone said that these perceptions are completely personal and, therefore, superior performance is purely subjective, ie: an opinion?

It does not follow from the fact that perception is completely personal (it is) that its an opinion. My perception of an orange as orange coloured is not a matter of opinion as I can't change what I perceive, but I can (and do) change my opinions.

Another example of this would be the Necker cube - we can't change our perception of how our brains translate this 2D image into 3D. Sometimes it flips but there's no conscious control over when although we can guide our perception into certain interpretations over others by concentrating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necker_cube

Another one to have fun with : http://quizstop.com/clockwise.htm
 
Make it an engineered active system -- and by that I mean one in which a top active designer chooses the amps, the crossovers, the drivers, and delivers them as a complete product, not a user-assembled system -- vs the same cabinets and drivers with passive crossovers designed for the system, driven by any existing consumer amplifier of your choice (no custom designs), and I'd love to take that test.

But could you set up a test that would deliver "no difference?" Sure.

Tim

Sure. Keep it simple too. DAC with volume control to a switcher to an amp/monitor combo and to a quality "engineered" par of monitors, no dogs, of similar frequency extension. No EQ on either and actives set on factory default settings. Level matched. My choice of material nothing less than 16/44.1. You think you can identify passive vs active just by crossover distortions Tim? Randomness to be determined with a handy old scientific calculator. Tell you what. You fly here, I put you up and if you get better than 7 out of 10 I pay your air fare. Lets make it a real blind test though. You will not know what monitors and amps will be used at all. I'll even keep prices within a couple of hundred dollars. You lose, you eat your words. You win, I'm out two grand. Game?
 
---I am quite familiar with a real live piano (musical sound instrument).

Some electronica (including mechanical loudspeakers), do a better job at recreating it over others.
Everything is important in the equation of reproduction (including the wiring and its composition).
...And the purity of everything (including the surrounding air).
 
How does the 'objectivist' select particular technical points A, B and C rather than say technical drawbacks D,E, and F? Answer - he's at the mercy of his (subjective) perception of what technical points make for a 'good' piece of kit. Neither the subjectivist nor the objectivist gets to bypass perception, its all we have to go on. Of course the objectivist will object (he is an objectivist after all) to this characterization of his means of choice of parameters as being so subjective, but his protestations do nothing to invalidate the truth.

I don't particularly object to this characterization, but in a way you are calling into question the whole of science. The idea is that although individual scientists are undeniably prey to their own prejudices and biases, the scientific method eventually overcomes them, and some sort of truth emerges. Is this not possible in a field as straightforwardly technical as audio reproduction?
 
I don't particularly object to this characterization, but in a way you are calling into question the whole of science. The idea is that although individual scientists are undeniably prey to their own prejudices and biases, the scientific method eventually overcomes them, and some sort of truth emerges. Is this not possible in a field as straightforwardly technical as audio reproduction?

There's no problem with the physics. The part where the science is still weak is in the understanding of perception and cognition. Most objectivists are still leaning on studies decades old. Mention the fact that even something as basic as Fletcher-Munson has gone through numerous revisions and they freak. Some are so steadfast that they insist ABX is more reliable than neural scans! Gimme a break!
 
How does the 'objectivist' select particular technical points A, B and C rather than say technical drawbacks D,E, and F?

Hello Opus 111

Well what if D,E and F are not audible or because A,B or C is so good that D, E and F are simply no longer important. If my subjective opinion is based on A,B and C where's the issue??

Rob:)
 
It just puzzles me. How can such perfect measurements yield such meidocre results? How can you deny the existence of a standard and at the same time argue that no one has met it?

I humbly suggest that if you have the system(that includes room or head if you are uisng hedphones) come forward and put it up aginst real music in real space. Otherwise no matter what your school of thought, you are a big fat fialure. You are forced to chose amongst inadequate designs.

Objectivists vs Subjectivists are just stereotypes for those who lack the evidence to support thier conclusions.
greg
 
I don't particularly object to this characterization, but in a way you are calling into question the whole of science.

'Science' is a word which can be interpreted in various ways. For example, it could mean 'the scientific method' or it could mean 'how present day scientists put their perception of the scientific method into practice'. If the latter, then I am most definitely calling it into question. I'm a big fan of the scientific method though - that is the observe, hypthesize, experiment arc.

The idea is that although individual scientists are undeniably prey to their own prejudices and biases, the scientific method eventually overcomes them, and some sort of truth emerges.

Over the longer term I'd agree yes, though with the caveat that there's no hope of 'truth' emerging. Rather science produces theories which work - i.e. have both explanatory and predictive power. Kuhn's and Feyerabend's observations though suggest that its progress is not in any real sense 'objective' - rather depending on the psychology of those involved. But then you've already hinted as much.

Is this not possible in a field as straightforwardly technical as audio reproduction?

Again, over the longer term yes I think it is. But its not 'straightforwardly technical' - its both technical and perceptual and the latter aspect is neither straightforward nor technical.
 
---I'm with ya Jack; science alone is not the final and absolute solution/verdict.
There is also the 'spiritual/emotional' level, gravitational variation from the impact's insurgence (on the soul's chords).
And that, you cannot control.
 
There's no problem with the physics. The part where the science is still weak is in the understanding of perception and cognition. Most objectivists are still leaning on studies decades old. Mention the fact that even something as basic as Fletcher-Munson has gone through numerous revisions and they freak. Some are so steadfast that they insist ABX is more reliable than neural scans! Gimme a break!

On the other hand, it was out-and-out objectivists who came up with the ideas that led to valve (tube) amplifiers, microgroove LPs, multi-way speakers, reel-to-reel tape and eventually digital recording, and all those other products of genius along the way. Their only goal, appears to have been very simple: linearity, and they achieved it by theory and pretty simple measurements. Maybe they were totally mistaken, but still the subjectivists seem to use variants of these core technologies, while 'objecting' to the methods that created them.
 

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