Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

Frantz,

I can agree with all you wrote in a generic way, but disagree on most of the details and implementation.

I fail to see how you want to apply the Harman methodology, that relies on the non existence of differences of sound between amplifiers and considering the effects we are looking for as secondary and minimal, to look for the the correlation between objective data and subjective data in electronics.

IMHO people have to accept that they can not endorse to be in good relation with God and the Devil in the name of being open minded. ;) If the results of Harman could be affected by the sound of amplifiers, all their results could be compromised and of no value.

Anyway it is nice to know you endorse the views of Ethan on acoustics. Can I ask if you also endorse the views of Floyd Toole on acoustics?

Yes, we agree that a debate about objective and subjective driven by Theresa's pamphlet is a poor stating point.
 
I fail to see how you want to apply the Harman methodology, that relies on the non existence of differences of sound between amplifiers

Hello microstrip

That's not true. It has nothing to with it and a complete distortion of the truth. They don't say that and they use the same amps to avoid it. Do you really think that they don't recognize the sensitivity of tube amps to the impedance curve of a loudspeaker as an example??

Promoters of objective side, as you seem to be now, always refer to something and a long list of possible measurements in a vague way, as if measurements were a shopping list, but do not give any concrete answers or point to reference papers on the subject.

Maybe you should read this The Carver Challenge. Obviously someone has enough knowledge to tweak amps to get them to sound the same. Bet you he wasn't groping in the dark to do it.

Rob:)
 

Attachments

  • CarverChallenge.pdf
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microstrip

We are going a little away from the OP and that may be good :) ...
Let me address as much as I can soe of your point. I may have to ask you quetions. I would like to know where an dhow the harman methodology , assuming the test they conduct with tryng to correlate listeners preference with speaker FR linearity, relies on to quote you
on the non existence of differences of sound between amplifiers
.. I would like you to explain to me how you infered that from the Harman test? I am pointing to you that Harman also makes amplifiers a case of shooting themselves in the foot if you're looking for one.

IN addition I don't want I suggested , like Tim, that such tests (correlating listeners preferences within a range of amplifiers to objective measurements), would be interesting and educative. Wouldn't you think? I mean and I don't see ant other way to say it than repeat if there are differences then ... you can read my previous post .. ;)

I don't know the differences between Floyd Toole and Ethan Winer views on acoustics and would like to know about them if any. For the record I also like the works of Earl Geddes on Room Acoustics, of Terry Montlick, Nyal Melior and Keith Yates to name those only ... They may have variations but I wasn't much aware of great dissension on the matters .. I could have been wrong.. The subject of small room acoustics is vast and complex so there will inevitably have different and sometimes opposite views and that's ok, I am learning.
 
Hello microstrip

That's not true. It has nothing to with it and a complete distortion of the truth. They don't say that and they use the same amps to avoid it. Do you really think that they don't recognize the sensitivity of tube amps to the impedance curve of a loudspeaker as an example??

Maybe you should read this The Carver Challenge. Obviously someone has enough knowledge to tweak amps to get them to sound the same. Bet you he wasn't groping in the dark to do it.

Rob:)

Rob,
Tube amps would be immediately discarded from Harman tests due to their output impedance. My comments naturally only addressed what they consider properly designed amplifiers. See Sound Reproduction by F. Toole page 421 18.6.3 The loudspeaker/amplifier interface : impedance, wire and damping factor.
 
Once again: What Frantz said.

What are the parameters that should be measured? I'll leave the specifics to the engineers in the room, but I think they should at least be sufficient to allow us to read a list of specifications for amps and speakers, and make a rough match to our room size and desired listening volume, up to the speakers' most challenging impedance peaks. I have a hard time believing that can't be done, and no difficulty at all understanding why it isn't happening, but give me that, plus FR +/- X db 20 - 20k and we'll be much better off than we are today, that's for sure. Are there other parameters? I'm sure.

None of that will stop the arguments, though, because they don't have anything to do with understanding what measurements can tell us about sound; they are about denying measurements that don't show our subjective choices to be objectively superior. We get all of these circular arguments, bad logic, scientific denials, and a pseudo-science thesaurus of ill-created and misappropriated language because a lot of Audiophiles prefer a sound that is, by all the objective criteria, inferior to the sound they hate. Some, I hope the silent majority, have the confidence to like with they like without rationalizing it. God bless them. But a very loud not-so-few with, it seems, a huge amount of pride invested, refuse to accept that what they like is not superior to what they dislike (I like pudding. I don't need to believe it is more nutritious than spinach). The fact that what they dislike performs so much better by nearly every measure short of their personal taste really seems to annoy them. And that is the heart of their dismissal of measurements and their dismissal, as tin-eared chart-readers, of those who believe in their usefullness.

And so here we are. Page 14 of discussion inspired by an insulting, bigoted, "article" that wouldn't pass in a freshman comp class and would probably get a student summarily ejected from a Philsophy department. Logic? None present.

Tim
 
(...) Let me address as much as I can soe of your point. I may have to ask you quetions. I would like to know where an dhow the harman methodology , assuming the test they conduct with tryng to correlate listeners preference with speaker FR linearity, relies on to quote you .. I would like you to explain to me how you infered that from the Harman test? I am pointing to you that Harman also makes amplifiers a case of shooting themselves in the foot if you're looking for one.
(...)
I don't know the differences between Floyd Toole and Ethan Winer views on acoustics and would like to know about them if any. For the record I also like the works of Earl Geddes on Room Acoustics, of Terry Montlick, Nyal Melior and Keith Yates to name those only ... They may have variations but I wasn't much aware of great dissension on the matters .. I could have been wrong.. The subject of small room acoustics is vast and complex so there will inevitably have different and sometimes opposite views and that's ok, I am learning.

Frantz,

You can find it at the F. Toole book at 17.2 Subjective measurements of loudspeakers—turning opinion into fact page 344 in my edition. But, at the risk of being to brief, can try to make me clear - all the results of Harman are based on statistical analysis of preferences, after they settled on which preferences establish a good sound. If by any case the electronics performance could affect the study, the results could be different. But it is not a problem for Harman, as F. Toole concludes In controlled listening tests and in measurements, electronic devices in general, speaker wire, and audio-frequency interconnection cables are found to exhibit small to nonexistent differences . IMHO the few references (Clark, Lipshitz, Vanderkooy, Nousaine and Self) he uses in his text are not good or strong enough to support this view, others will think differently. But this is just a small detail in hundreds of pages of an excellent book about loudspeakers and acoustics - it is why I hate seeing it mixed with naive suggestions about electronics tests.

And yes, respected views on small /medium room acoustics are most of the time opposite. It can drive drive you crazy if you do not read the why's and do not choose a side.
 
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Tube amps would be immediately discarded from Harman tests due to their output impedance. My comments naturally only addressed what they consider properly designed amplifiers. See Sound Reproduction by F. Toole page 421 18.6.3 The loudspeaker/amplifier interface : impedance, wire and damping factor.

Hello microstrip


Of course they would. Why add another variable. What they consider properly designed doesn't make the leap to they all sound the same.

electronic devices in general, speaker wire, and audio-frequency interconnection cables are found to exhibit small to nonexistent differences

Key word Small. If it said only nonexistent then OK but he doesn't say that.


Read my attachment. You think that you can't tell with measurements how amps sound different?? How do you think Carver was able to achieve his 70dB null to make the amps sound the same?? Think he was guessing?? He was measuring and adjusting parameters in the amp to make it sound the same.

Rob:)
 
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Once again: What Frantz said.

What are the parameters that should be measured? I'll leave the specifics to the engineers in the room, but I think they should at least be sufficient to allow us to read a list of specifications for amps and speakers, and make a rough match to our room size and desired listening volume, up to the speakers' most challenging impedance peaks. I have a hard time believing that can't be done, and no difficulty at all understanding why it isn't happening, but give me that, plus FR +/- X db 20 - 20k and we'll be much better off than we are today, that's for sure. Are there other parameters? I'm sure.

None of that will stop the arguments, though, because they don't have anything to do with understanding what measurements can tell us about sound; they are about denying measurements that don't show our subjective choices to be objectively superior. We get all of these circular arguments, bad logic, scientific denials, and a pseudo-science thesaurus of ill-created and misappropriated language because a lot of Audiophiles prefer a sound that is, by all the objective criteria, inferior to the sound they hate. Some, I hope the silent majority, have the confidence to like with they like without rationalizing it. God bless them. But a very loud not-so-few with, it seems, a huge amount of pride invested, refuse to accept that what they like is not superior to what they dislike (I like pudding. I don't need to believe it is more nutritious than spinach). The fact that what they dislike performs so much better by nearly every measure short of their personal taste really seems to annoy them. And that is the heart of their dismissal of measurements and their dismissal, as tin-eared chart-readers, of those who believe in their usefullness.

And so here we are. Page 14 of discussion inspired by an insulting, bigoted, "article" that wouldn't pass in a freshman comp class and would probably get a student summarily ejected from a Philsophy department. Logic? None present.

Tim

Phelonious,

Nothing personal, but what is your point? What is your objective with this thread and with your posts? What are you trying to achieve?
 
(...)

Read my attachment. You think that you can't tell with measurements how amps sound different?? How do you think Carver was able to achieve his 70dB null to make the amps sound the same?? Think he was guessing?? He was measuring and adjusting parameters in the amp to make it sound the same.

Rob:)

Rob,

I read the Carver challenge report decades ago. At that time it was interesting, it is now part of the history of audio, nothing else. Bob Carver was a very talented designer and managed to emulate the distortions or something else of of the cj Premier 3 tube amplifier making his amplifier sound similar to the target amplifier to a restricted listening panel in specific conditions. At that time it very debated, but there were no technical or scientific reports on the modifications, and no evidence other than all the word of the mouth and a few followup letters. We have now a periodic resurrection of debates around it, adding nothing really new. I fail to see what we can gain re-opening it in 2012.
 
Phelonious,

Nothing personal, but what is your point? What is your objective with this thread and with your posts? What are you trying to achieve?

Does anyone actually have an objective when they post to internet discussion boards? A goal? I don't. No agenda beyond the same one we all have; to discuss. Would it be nice if the people who attack every test, study, measurement, datapoint that seems to say that their prefernce is just a preference, not a superior listening experience as of yet unvalidated by science, stopped with the kind of insulting nonsense epipitomized by the article at the top of this thread, relaxed, and just accepted that their preference is just a preference? Yes, that would be nice. But it's not going to happen, so I'm just expressing my point of view, just like the rest of us. Why express it repeatedly? A) I keep repeatedly coming across posts to which it seems like a good answer. B) After I read something like the article above, I need the mental exercise to wash the stench of it from my brain.

Tim
 
Rob,

I read the Carver challenge report decades ago. At that time it was interesting, it is now part of the history of audio, nothing else. Bob Carver was a very talented designer and managed to emulate the distortions or something else of of the cj Premier 3 tube amplifier making his amplifier sound similar to the target amplifier to a restricted listening panel in specific conditions. At that time it very debated, but there were no technical or scientific reports on the modifications, and no evidence other than all the word of the mouth and a few followup letters. We have now a periodic resurrection of debates around it, adding nothing really new. I fail to see what we can gain re-opening it in 2012.

Just to be fair to Bob, he made it indistinguishable from the Premier 3 to a couple of audio pros who thought there was no chance he could pull it off, under the conditions they prescribed. Does it mean all amps sound alike or even could be made to sound alike? No, not quite. But to Rob's point, it says an awful lot about what a good engineer can tell about an amp, and do to make it sound the way he wants. You think he did that completely be ear? In a hotel room? In 3 days?

Tim
 
I fail to see what we can gain re-opening it in 2012.

Well after all this time here we are discussing the same things. It's like being on a deserted island for 20 years and finding the world as it was. You can start a conversation 20 years later and be right on topic nothing new nothing changes! Oh well gota go finish my new subwoofers.

Rob:D
 
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What does all this tell us, though? Don't the top flight amps of today (pick your poison here, I'm reluctant to get brand-specific unless it is necessary) sound different? And aren't all of them designed with sound engineering principles? Or are they 'voiced' with the particular designer's preference in mind?
 
"And no, I admit I have not read the article. My own biases tell me that it probably contains nothing new that hasn't been said a thousand times before "

...but she said it so well.
 
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Just to be fair to Bob, he made it indistinguishable from the Premier 3 to a couple of audio pros who thought there was no chance he could pull it off, under the conditions they prescribed. Does it mean all amps sound alike or even could be made to sound alike? No, not quite. But to Rob's point, it says an awful lot about what a good engineer can tell about an amp, and do to make it sound the way he wants. You think he did that completely be ear? In a hotel room? In 3 days?

Tim

I love when people ask questions they fully know the answer, just to be provocative. ;)

Stereophile said:
Bob admits that he is not sure himself about the audible effects of some of the parameters he juggled to match the transfer functions of his amp to that of our reference. Had he been using this trimming technique to produce a certain desired combination of sonic qualities, using only his ears to evaluate what was going on, the task would have been quite a bit more difficult and time-consuming, the results far less predictable.

The "subjectivity" in this question is not in the use or not use of measurements - it is that only ONE man managed to do this modification and did not teach any one or write a recipe book to do it. In order to be objective or scientific you have to establish a model and find a way of doing it in a systematic and predictable way - your dream a few posts ago.
 
I like how Pass Labs describes the objective vs. subjective approach to component design...specifically their XS series I'll quote:

Introduction
It seems like yesterday, and so it is a little surprising to note the Pass Labs SuperSymmetry design is 18 years old, and the patent expires at the end of 2011. In the last few years we have recognized that design must move forward; that there are still improvements to be made in amplifiers. SuperSymmetry serves as a good start, but plus ultra, there is more beyond.
Technical excellence is a virtue by itself, but it will be the sound that determines the long term success of a new design after the novelty has worn off. The audio marketplace is littered with products that measured spectacularly well but which did not go down as “classics” because they lacked the subjective qualities that kept listeners happy beyond the initial excitement.
With this uppermost in mind we set out to create a new generation of amplifiers that measure well, but in a manner that only serves the subjective perception of listeners. Oscilloscopes and distortion analyzers are excellent tools, but they make lousy customers. Our real customers care most about the experience they get when they sit down to listen to their music.
We want our products to invite you to listen.
We want you to enjoy the experience so much that you go through your entire record collection - again and again. We want customers for the long haul.

The Role of Distortion Numbers
A simple survey of really successful audio amplifiers shows that distortion numbers by themselves are not that important. Obviously there is some level at which harmonic distortion is subjectively intrusive – we could probably stipulate that 10% distortion is too much, and would probably accept that 1% would be quite audible.
Conversely, we should accept that distortion becomes inaudible below some arbitrary level. Is it at 0.1%? 0.01%? 0.001%? We actually don’t know, because there has to be a much larger context of performance to which a single number only alludes.
So while we measure all the things we can as part of the development process, it is the listening experience which has to be the deciding factor. Objective measurements are helpful, and they certainly are important to insure conformity in the manufacturing process, but all this only serves the customer’s listening experience, which is primarily subjective. Similarly with all the other objective characteristics of the amplifier – they are subservient to the customer’s experience.

The Process
We began the work with a group of listeners and upgraded the uniformity of their playback systems with components chosen for the ability to reveal differences between amplifiers. We did not do AB or ABX testing – people lived with prototypes as long as they liked in their own system, and the only changes made were to the amplifiers themselves.
We built sets of modular prototypes which allowed us to alter any given part of the amplifier – the heaviest parts, the heat sinks and transformers and such, stayed relatively static so that one person could easily make the changes.
At the same time we began an examination of the characteristics and sound of some other types of gain devices (tubes and SITs) and also alternative versions of the Jfets and Mosfets which comprise our current products.
The process took about three years. In the first year we had settled on most of the power supply design and the physical chassis and heat sinks, and in the second year we finalized the basic power output stage and front end. In this last year we have been tweaking the front end circuits and the biasing arrangements and values of the output stage.

Harmonic Structure
We paid a good deal of attention to the harmonic structure of the amplifier’s transfer curve. It is well understood that the relative amounts of the various harmonics in distortion characteristic contribute to the perception of audibility. It is generally agreed that concentration of this distortion into the second and third harmonics is best and the reduction or elimination of higher order harmonics is also desired. What is not so clear is the best relative second and third harmonic amplitude and phase.
It turns out that these relations are some importance and that their perception is also dependent on absolute amplitude, the topology of the circuit, the bias of the circuit, the types of devices, the feedback which might be employed, and of course, everything else. However, for a given design, these things can be successfully tweaked into a state which is subjectively preferred by our listeners, and we came to unanimity on the result.

Emphasis on Output Stage
While every part of the amplifier is important, playing with developmental tube and SIT designs, we concluded that it is the character of the power output stage itself which is most influential in shaping the sound of the amplifier. This is not a radically new idea – the output stage does the most work, generally has the most distortion, and is the interface to the complex variable and reactive load which is a loudspeaker.
In the end, we found that adjusting the values for push-pull Class A biasing and also the amount of single-ended bias in the output stage gave us a major improvement. Pass Labs started with single-ended Class A bias in 1991 and current product still uses some of these techniques, but the new design increases the value of single-ended bias by an order of magnitude over the XA series of amplifiers. This bias is supplied by newer, improved constant current sources with tightly regulated values and very high dynamic impedances. Most importantly, we can adjust this output stage for a particular subjective character. It is helpful that the output stage transistors have an aggregate capacity well over 10 KW, and that the massive heat sink assemblies are capable of 2 KW all day long. No cute little heatsinks here

The Front End
Initially we designed a new front end that could be tweaked to produce arbitrary ratios of low order harmonics, and while this worked fine, after we finished working with the output stage portion of the design we found that it worked better to have the front end simply complement the output stage in a largely neutral manner.
The new front end is not more complex than the previous design. It still uses cascoded matched Toshiba Jfets (NOS from our large cache) for the input devices which drive complementary Mosfets.
However we have increased the heat sinking so that this stage can be biased with 2.5 times more current and brought in higher quality Toshiba Mosfets (also NOS). This dramatically increases the linearity and bandwidth of the front end, and with the proper adjustment of each part of each stage and balancing degeneration with loading gives us an amplifier front end which by itself has low distortion, a 100 Khz bandwidth and a fairly low output impedance – all without a feedback loop.
Also, the new front end has a 200 Kohm input impedance (balanced) with very small capacitance. Anything will drive it.
Feedback is not essential for this front end, but we have left it with enough open loop gain to allow some feedback around the output stage. This is strictly in service of the sound of the output stage – it already has decent specs.
http://passlabs.com/images/uploads/manual/Xs_series_lit-lres.pdf
 
-snip-After I read something like the article above, I need the mental exercise to wash the stench of it from my brain.

Tim

Oh, so you don't agree with the article? Why didn't you make that clearer earlier? :)
 
... If the amplifiers do some different then something has to make them so. If it is repeatable it can eventualy be measured... FR, phase, level, TIM, IM, something ... I frankly don't get what is not obvious with this point:physical existence equates with measurability.

Frantz, I'm sure there are amp designers out there, such as Nelson Pass, who have a better idea of this than others. But they are not talking.
 
What does all this tell us, though? Don't the top flight amps of today (pick your poison here, I'm reluctant to get brand-specific unless it is necessary) sound different?
I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but given that the purpose of an amplifier is to amplify the input, not alter it (it is not a processor or an eq), I would hope that they sound very much alike.

And aren't all of them designed with sound engineering principles? Or are they 'voiced' with the particular designer's preference in mind?

If the answer to your first question is yes, they all sound different, then the answers to these two questions are either no to "sound engineering principles" and/or yes to "voiced."

Here's the old equation again: two amps of the same power driving the same signal through the same load....they should sound the the same if they are fullfilling their basic purpose. Are they exactly alike? No, perfection is evasive. Very, very close? If they aren't, one or both of them is fundamentally doing something wrong. AV receivers at Best Buy seem to sound more alike than Audiophiles think "top flight" amps sound. The word on the Audiophile street is that the differences are obvious. Engineering or perception? Something is amiss.

Tim
 
Oh, so you don't agree with the article? Why didn't you make that clearer earlier? :)

Sometimes I beat around the bush a bit, John. It's just a part of being so shy and reserved.

Tim
 

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