Wilson Audio Subwoofer Placement

[Elliot G.]

It is pejorative of you to suggest that "you have to buy subwoofers." As somebody who would add subwoofers to a ham sandwich, there are loads of legitimately full range speakers to which I would add subwoofers.

i prefer my ham sandwiches with swiss and mayo and mustard. Subwoofers are hard to bite through.
Subs can be used in a line array , see Infinity and Genesis speakers and Gobel master showroom has a sick set up as well.
There is almost no end to the insanity if you want to lay the piper

 

[Ron Resnick]

and yet every time you see them it has subs? things that make you go HMMMMMM LOL

You have to ask Danny. He had XVX with no subwoofers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

they have everything to integrate them and get maximum results. Adjustable phase in 1 degree increments allows for perfect timing . This is available in the latest software for a about a year

Those Sovereigns are amazing, yes.

 

[microstrip]

You have to ask Danny. He had XVX with no subwoofers.

As far as I know most users of XLFs have no subs - I did not need them in my previous room. In the current one they are absolutely needed.

 

[Elliot G.]

Everywhere I have seen the XVX it was with subs, Munich, Harley's and most pictures posted of them and the Chronosonics all have subs. No value judgement just the reality I have seen.

 

[sbo6]

I can speak to this, at least partly. I have done several LoKe subwoofer setups and the ideal placement tends to be 2-6” (usually 4” is the best) away from the main speaker raked to an angle of the main speakers woofer, and a phase degree of 6-11 depending on type of amplifier, usually 6-7 for tube gear. You dial them in based on a click track.

The larger Chronosonic style woofers are designed to be placed on the corner back wall but similar setup procedures apply.

How can one possibly provide phase guidance which is based on axial, tangential and oblique room modes' interactions from the mains and the subs and their location along with the listening location and specific room dimensions?

 

[sbo6]

Everywhere I have seen the XVX it was with subs, Munich, Harley's and most pictures posted of them and the Chronosonics all have subs. No value judgement just the reality I have seen.

With the XVX mid and high frequency driver compliment it's no wonder they're always including subs. The total woofer area (not sure about the bass cabinet volume) is smaller than the XLF, yet it employs 5 mids / tweeters. The logic was likely that the bass cabinet would have to be significantly larger (cost, shipping, weight issues?) and as such, they recommend (require?) separate subs rolling off the mains' woofers via an external Xover.. Nothing like spending a third of a mil with inadequate bass. ;-)

 

[sbo6]

I’m personally skeptical of the REL six-pack regardless of placement. It definitely creates room acoustics issues in my experience.

Also, I politely differ on subs next to mains. I can tell you with certainty that it is correct for Wilson Audio speakers.

Based on what comparative data?
If I say, I REALLY REALLY REALLY believe subs should not be next to mains, does that make me more right?

However, my assessment is not only based on listening, it's based on Dr. Floyd Toole's work and technical papers along with my many measurements and subwoofer setup results. I'd be happy to show results (well, not really happy as I don't want to have to dig them up)

 

[sbo6]

Gobel Divin Sovereigns are phase adjustable in 1 degree increments from your chair BTW

And I'll make a bet that 1 degree is completely useless as A) it's a misnomer that you're dialing in all frequencies with sub phase due to room modes inter-actions and B) humans can't hear to that level of nuance especially when it affects the response curve differently at different frequencies

I've done this many times, +/- 5 degrees phase adjustment makes virtually no difference in the listening experience. For bass, think large, wide range frequency response dips / peaks. The details are superfluous.

BTW, many subs allow 1 degree phase adjustments from your chair including my Perlistens as does my cheapo $700 SVS baby dual 8" sub. ;-)

 

[Elliot G.]

A) it's a misnomer that you're dialing in all frequencies with sub phase due to room modes inter-actions and B) humans can't hear to that level of nuance especially when it affects the response curve differently at different frequencies

No one ever said that A , I certainly didn't. Having the ability to control phase in small increments is very effective period. No one said that other companies will not or can do anything.
What makes no difference in your system may not be true somewhere else and with different gear.

 

[sbo6]

No one ever said that A , I certainly didn't. Having the ability to control phase in small increments is very effective period. No one said that other companies will not or can do anything.
What makes no difference in your system may not be true somewhere else and with different gear.

Who says I was talking about one system with one setup? I've measured and tuned quite a few, all types. Small phase increments are useless. 5 degree increments are more than enough. Try it for yourself - 1 degree at a time - objectively, A B A - because I have.

IME audio elitists seem to think they can hear better than most, yet they can't. Trust but verify.

 

[Elliot G.]

Who says I was talking about one system with one setup? I've measured and tuned quite a few, all types. Small phase increments are useless. 5 degree increments are more than enough. Try it for yourself - 1 degree at a time - objectively, A B A - because I have.

IME audio elitists seem to think they can hear better than most, yet they can't. Trust but verify.

If you want to be insulting and condescending then please go ahead. I'm very happy you are an expert and measured a few. I did not call you names , I did not state anything but the facts. I am not an audio elitist but I have been doing this for over 50 years. You of course have never used our sub nor have any experience with it but go right ahead and assume.

 

[Lee]

With six subwoofers to play with I am sure the swarm aficionados would be much happier distributing them around the room.


Sorry which is correct for Wilson Audio speakers?

I assume you mean placing the subwoofers other than next to the main speakers?

On the LoKe and Submerge, they should be on the outside of Alexia Vs and Sasha Vs. Same for Alexx and XVX imho. The big towers seem to work on the back wall and corners.

 

[sbo6]

If you want to be insulting and condescending then please go ahead. I'm very happy you are an expert and measured a few. I did not call you names , I did not state anything but the facts. I am not an audio elitist but I have been doing this for over 50 years. You of course have never used our sub nor have any experience with it but go right ahead and assume.

Now who's being insulting?

And what facts? Because you believe 1 degree of phase matters, based on what? Your 50 years of listening, but never comparing 1 degree sonically to verify?

And let me get this straight, the guy who's never tested to verify that 1 degree of 360 is audible is telling me I assume, LOL.

I've measured dozens of subs and speakers and thousands of measurements, I assume nothing, they're all LF transducers that obey the laws of physics, whether the sub is $100 or $10,000. There are many books that can educate you (and not YouTube).

Think about it. Be rational. Don't assume. Change 1 variable, measure and listen. I have and I do. If you have proof that 1 single degree out of 360 is audible, I'm all ears. Until then please don't state falsehoods.

 

[Lee]

How can one possibly provide phase guidance which is based on axial, tangential and oblique room modes' interactions from the mains and the subs and their location along with the listening location and specific room dimensions?

I’m sharing what has worked for my own professional setups with respect to Wilson. In this case, I would say the phase degrees work in most rooms. For example, my room is 15 x 20 but my client Ian’s room is a bit larger. The setup was effectively the same for Ian but we had to put the subs on the inside due to a home theater room along the left side.

 

[Lee]

Now who's being insulting?

And what facts? Because you believe 1 degree of phase matters, based on what? Your 50 years of listening, but never comparing 1 degree sonically to verify?

And let me get this straight, the guy who's never tested to verify that 1 degree of 360 is audible is telling me I assume, LOL.

I've measured dozens of subs and speakers and thousands of measurements, I assume nothing, they're all LF transducers that obey the laws of physics, whether the sub is $100 or $10,000. There are many books that can educate you (and not YouTube).

Think about it. Be rational. Don't assume. Change 1 variable, measure and listen. I have and I do. If you have proof that 1 single degree out of 360 is audible, I'm all ears. Until then please don't state falsehoods.

One degree of phase matters quite a bit. My setup of my clients and my own have proven that.

 

[Lee]

Based on what comparative data?
If I say, I REALLY REALLY REALLY believe subs should not be next to mains, does that make me more right?

However, my assessment is not only based on listening, it's based on Dr. Floyd Toole's work and technical papers along with my many measurements and subwoofer setup results. I'd be happy to show results (well, not really happy as I don't want to have to dig them up)

As so one doing setups, I rely on my own critical listening skills and room measurements. But measurements, even those in acoustics, don’t tell you the whole story.

 

[Lee]

Based on what comparative data?
If I say, I REALLY REALLY REALLY believe subs should not be next to mains, does that make me more right?

However, my assessment is not only based on listening, it's based on Dr. Floyd Toole's work and technical papers along with my many measurements and subwoofer setup results. I'd be happy to show results (well, not really happy as I don't want to have to dig them up)

Based on listening with and without three sub towers.

 

[Porsche]

One degree of phase matters quite a bit. My setup of my clients and my own have proven that.

so you can tell between say 99 and 100 degree phase shift?

 

[sbo6]

Based on listening with and without three sub towers.

Thanks Lee. In different locations for the subs to compare? Or just in and out?