Natural Sound

[microstrip]

My transparent Audio ref XL complete loom of wires and power products basically expanded the scale of the sound stage for every recording overlaying it with a sameness. The wires specifically emphasized low frequencies and high frequencies for enhanced detail, but removed what I would describe now as rich tone and mass from the lower mid range upper base.

I owned the same cables for a long time. Fortunately they sounded great and did not have the problems you outline - I listen a lot to chamber music and dislike bigger than life or inadequate sound stage. Never heard that these cables enhanced high frequencies, some people complained of the opposite. It looks that your Sublime Sound sounded very inadequate and dingy.

With my limited exposure at the time, I thought this was all a good thing, but then I started listening to more small and large scale classical live music. It took me a long time to realize that the wires and power products overlaid a sameness to everything and enhancing while at the same time diminishing. Over time and increased exposure, I abandoned the products for stock power cords, and more conventional wires.

I am happy you did. Did you notice the same effect in Transparent Audio listening room?

 

[microstrip]

(...) I’ve been experimenting with cables with more perceived detail (silver) (...)

Bye-bye natural sound, according to Vladimir Lamm and DDK!

 

[Al M.]

Bye-bye natural sound, according to Vladimir Lamm and DDK!

For silver cables the same holds as for so many things in audio:

"It depends."

But that is not a good enough answer for the absolutist dogmatists in audio.

I have silver cables too...

 

[PeterA]

I am happy you did. Did you notice the same effect in Transparent Audio listening room?

They played only their best cables and solo cello. It sounded good but larger than life. With my lack of knowledge, I attributed the scale to the large speakers. I learned over time and with comparisons in my own system what the cables were doing. The constant need to recalibrate the cables was not welcome. I learned and moved on.

It is a hobby of searching and enjoying. At some point I stopped searching and continue to enjoy.

 

[microstrip]

They played only their best cables and solo cello.

A pity. Visiting one one of he most famous listening rooms in the world just to listen to a solo instrument.

It sounded good but larger than life. With my lack of knowledge, I attributed the scale to the large speakers.

Cello sounds larger than life many times because it was recorded to show so.

I learned over time and with comparisons in my own system what the cables were doing.

How long did you own them?

The constant need to recalibrate the cables was not welcome.

You have a point here. These cables can a be a nuisance if we change a lot. But tuning is free and if we have a good dealer it is a simple affair.

I learned and moved on.

Curiously I also found in WBF that Pass and Transparent Audio seem to be a poor match - we are always learning. Cable matching is an art.

 

[PeterA]

There has been a lot of chatter in this thread about SETs and their inherent limitations. I would like to address the two main criticisms because my system is assembled around my amplifiers, the 18W Lamm ML2 SET.

The first criticism is that SETs should operate below 10-20% of their maximum power to limit distortion. For me, that means up to 1.8 - 3.6 watts maximum. Speaker choice, music genre, room size, and listening levels all affect how hard the amplifier is asked to work. My speakers are specified as 16 ohm with 105 dB sensitivity. I have a small room and usually listen at levels around 70 dB with peaks around 85 dB. On rare occasions, I may blast some rock and reach 95 dB. I listen mostly to small and large scale acoustic music, both classical and jazz with some classic rock. I sit about 14' from my speakers. I figure that I use less than 1 watt or about 5.5% of available power for most listening. According to the measurements in my ML2 manual, total harmonic distortion plus noise is 0.5% for 1 W from 20-20KHz. It is 1% distortion plus noise at 5 W and 2% at 18 watts, levels I never reach.

The second criticism is that SETs can not do bass, and should therefore be used for the midrange and tweeter only. My corner horns use a compression driver from 500 Hz up to about 15K Hz. The 15" paper cone woofer fires into a folded horn with open back into the front corners of my room and radiate out along the front and side walls, extending the size of the horn. I figure total extension is from the mid 30s up to around 15K Hz, though I have not measured it. At some point I may look into two subwoofers driven by my second pair of ML2 amplifiers, but I am quite satisfied at the moment.

I do not question the claimed SET limitations, but I do not hear those limitations with my amp/speaker pairing in my room. Or, it is possible that I hear them, but do not recognize them for what they are. Regardless, I enjoy what I hear. Here is a recent video of a female voice and acoustic double bass. To me, this sounds open, effortless, extended and low in distortion. I hear clarity and energy.

 

[hopkins]

There has been a lot of chatter in this thread about SETs and their inherent limitations. I would like to address the two main criticisms because my system is assembled around my amplifiers, the 18W Lamm ML2 SET.

The first criticism is that SETs should operate below 10-20% of their maximum power to limit distortion. For me, that means up to 1.8 - 3.6 watts maximum. Speaker choice, music genre, room size, and listening levels all affect how hard the amplifier is asked to work. My speakers are specified as 16 ohm with 105 dB sensitivity. I have a small room and usually listen at levels around 70 dB with peaks around 85 dB. On rare occasions, I may blast some rock and reach 95 dB. I listen mostly to small and large scale acoustic music, both classical and jazz with some classic rock. I sit about 14' from my speakers. I figure that I use less than 1 watt or about 5.5% of available power for most listening. According to the measurements in my ML2 manual, total harmonic distortion plus noise is 0.5% for 1 W from 20-20KHz. It is 1% distortion plus noise at 5 W and 2% at 18 watts, levels I never reach.

The second criticism is that SETs can not do bass, and should therefore be used for the midrange and tweeter only. My corner horns use a compression driver from 500 Hz up to about 15K Hz. The 15" paper cone woofer fires into a folded horn with open back into the front corners of my room and radiate out along the front and side walls, extending the size of the horn. I figure total extension is from the mid 30s up to around 15K Hz, though I have not measured it. At some point I may look into two subwoofers driven by my second pair of ML2 amplifiers, but I am quite satisfied at the moment.

I do not question the claimed SET limitations, but I do not hear those limitations with my amp/speaker pairing in my room. Or, it is possible that I hear them, but do not recognize them for what they are. Regardless, I enjoy what I hear. Here is a recent video of a female voice and acoustic double bass. To me, this sounds open, effortless, extended and low in distortion. I hear clarity and energy.

I have no opinion about SET amps but you could choose different vocals to illustrate “natural sound”.

 

[tima]

do not question the claimed SET limitations, but I do not hear those limitations with my amp/speaker pairing in my room.

Who you gonna believe, an argument on a forum or your lying ears ?

 

[PeterA]

Who you gonna believe, an argument on a forum or your lying ears ?

That’s a good one Tim You use the ML2s with less sensitive speakers and the results as judged by your system videos are superb, especially on large scale, classical symphonic music.

I don’t know about other SETs, but this thread is not about those amplifiers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The vocal in that video Peter sounds dry, sharp and unnatural ("digital," in other words) to me.

 

[jeff1225]

The appreciation of SET amps are based on the type of tube that people prefer to achieve goals in sound character and power. Shindo's amps had/have simpler topology but explored various tubes including F2A, 300b, GM70, and 2A3. LAMM used just two tubes, the GM70 and 6C33C for his SET amps. I've never seen if he pontificated on 300b, 2A3, or 45.

 

[morricab]

The appreciation of SET amps are based on the type of tube that people prefer to achieve goals in sound character and power. Shindo's amps had/have simpler topology but explored various tubes including F2A, 300b, GM70, and 2A3. LAMM used just two tubes, the GM70 and 6C33C for his SET amps. I've never seen if he pontificated on 300b, 2A3, or 45.

Mr. Lamm liked his Russian tubes I guess because he was comfortable in what he knew about their performance characteristics. The 6C33c isn’t the most linear of triodes and has special heater and output transformer needs but it can sound damn good nonetheless. I have owned several amps with that tube (not a Lamm though) and still own an Ayon Spark that I use in my DIY active system.
The prettiest sounding amp I think I have owned though is my Silvercore 2A3 amp…you just melt when you hear it. Crystal clear mids with some softening of the frequency extremes…but that mid!!

 

[andromedaaudio]

There has been a lot of chatter in this thread about SETs and their inherent limitations. I would like to address the two main criticisms because my system is assembled around my amplifiers, the 18W Lamm ML2 SET.

The first criticism is that SETs should operate below 10-20% of their maximum power to limit distortion. For me, that means up to 1.8 - 3.6 watts maximum. Speaker choice, music genre, room size, and listening levels all affect how hard the amplifier is asked to work. My speakers are specified as 16 ohm with 105 dB sensitivity. I have a small room and usually listen at levels around 70 dB with peaks around 85 dB. On rare occasions, I may blast some rock and reach 95 dB. I listen mostly to small and large scale acoustic music, both classical and jazz with some classic rock. I sit about 14' from my speakers. I figure that I use less than 1 watt or about 5.5% of available power for most listening. According to the measurements in my ML2 manual, total harmonic distortion plus noise is 0.5% for 1 W from 20-20KHz. It is 1% distortion plus noise at 5 W and 2% at 18 watts, levels I never reach.

The second criticism is that SETs can not do bass, and should therefore be used for the midrange and tweeter only. My corner horns use a compression driver from 500 Hz up to about 15K Hz. The 15" paper cone woofer fires into a folded horn with open back into the front corners of my room and radiate out along the front and side walls, extending the size of the horn. I figure total extension is from the mid 30s up to around 15K Hz, though I have not measured it. At some point I may look into two subwoofers driven by my second pair of ML2 amplifiers, but I am quite satisfied at the moment.

I do not question the claimed SET limitations, but I do not hear those limitations with my amp/speaker pairing in my room. Or, it is possible that I hear them, but do not recognize them for what they are. Regardless, I enjoy what I hear. Here is a recent video of a female voice and acoustic double bass. To me, this sounds open, effortless, extended and low in distortion. I hear clarity and energy.

Hello , the vid sounds quit nice i think , lots of nuance in the voice .

But thats were Sets excell in ( limited narrow band music ., at least with most transducers that i know of )

Put on some Rock / electronic music / orchestra/ Organ

 

[andromedaaudio]

Record a Orchestra vid , and then see if we can hear on YT the dynamic swings / swell of the orchestra .
On a bit of volume as well

 

[PeterA]

Hello , the vid sounds quit nice i think , lots of nuance in the voice .

But thats were Sets excell in ( limited narrow band music ., at least with most transducers that i know of )

Put on some Rock / electronic music / orchestra/ Organ

I have posted rock and orchestra music videos also. You can always listen to Tim’s wonderful videos of large scale classical. He has the exact same amplifiers.

Do you find the low frequencies lacking in my video?

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have posted rock and orchestra music videos also. You can always listen to Tim’s wonderful videos of large scale classical. He has the exact same amplifiers.

Do you find the low frequencies lacking in my video?

in general a bit yes .
Are your bass cabinets sealed in the corners , or is there some acoustic short cut ?
I have listened to tims vids , quit nice .
I think Tangs orchestra vid was the best

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have posted rock and orchestra music videos also. You can always listen to Tim’s wonderful videos of large scale classical. He has the exact same amplifiers.

Do you find the low frequencies lacking in my video?

Wait till i have my 268 C / big FM stereo / monos .
It will give all the nuance of SETs and then some .
With all the drive real music has in itself

 

[PeterA]

in general a bit yes .
Are your bass cabinets sealed in the corners , or is there some acoustic short cut ?
I have listened to tims vids , quit nice .
I think Tangs orchestra vid was the best

As Tim wrote above, trust your ears on SETs. I don’t hear any issues. Tim’s speakers extend lower and Tang uses subwoofers. They’re both excellent systems as I judge from the videos.

 

[PeterA]

Wait till i have my 268 C / big FM stereo / monos .
It will give all the nuance of SETs and then some .
With all the drive real music has in itself

Good luck. How long are you asking us to wait? Your golden silver profit should be coming in soon and you could buy whatever you want. Happy for you.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good luck. How long are you asking us to wait? Your golden silver profit should be coming in soon and you could buy whatever you want. Happy for you.

Haha , sure they have arrived already lol .
I don t need to wait , but there is a time/moment for everything.

But you were asking why people criticize SET , hence my answer