In Pursuit of the very best amplifier (to my ears!) money can buy...

[andromedaaudio]

Also, a new brand from France, Apurna claims to be best thing since the sliced bread, however their only dealer who posts here on WBF does not reply , so you luck may vary....

All brands claim to be the best .
Either being SOTA or the best in their price class

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There were just a couple options left to consider....more to follow

Pat, it's hard to imagine a more entertaining thread topic for big amp/dynamic speaker fans. my hat is off to you for all the effort and passion to do it, and sharing it with us. your descriptions were very well presented. i'm excited to hear more, and also discussion of the finer points about each of these wonderful products as we go along. hope current and past owners of some of these amps can chime in too. on the one hand we want to wait to read your punchline here about the rest of the story. on the other hand we want to talk now about the amps you have already described. so indulge me i have a question.

from reading and re-reading your posts up to now, the leaders in no particular order are the 'early production unit' Soulution 717's, the Burmeister 159's, and the d'Agostino Relentless w/ARC pre.

i wonder if you were now to freshly hear the 717's and that 'event' never happened where you seemed to put it aside on the basis of 'fate rearing it's head', would it just based on sonics be a touch above those others, or in the pack? (of the amps so far listed).

asking for a friend.

 

[pk_LA]

Pat, it's hard to imagine a more entertaining thread topic for big amp/dynamic speaker fans. my hat is off to you for all the effort and passion to do it, and sharing it with us. your descriptions were very well presented. i'm excited to hear more, and also discussion of the finer points about each of these wonderful products as we go along. hope current and past owners of some of these amps can chime in too. on the one hand we want to wait to read your punchline here about the rest of the story. on the other hand we want to talk now about the amps you have already described. so indulge me i have a question.

from reading and re-reading your posts up to now, the leaders in no particular order are the 'early production unit' Soulution 717's, the Burmeister 159's, and the d'Agostino Relentless w/ARC pre.

i wonder if you were now to freshly hear the 717's and that 'event' never happened where you seemed to put it aside on the basis of 'fate rearing it's head', would it just based on sonics be a touch above those others, or in the pack? (of the amps so far listed).

asking for a friend.

I think the 717s + 727 would stand as the best I heard except the option I purchased.

The 717s had incredible bass control and definition. While the 159s had more 'thump', the 717s have resolution that is the best I have experienced.

The 717s mid-range was slightly warm but incredibly resolved. I have generally felt that you kind of need to pick your preference. You can get natural, warm and holographic mid-range or you can get resolution and speed across the range. The 717s literally did it all. Ron R referred to them as some of the best SS he has ever heard (coming from a tube diehard).

The upper frequencies were never harsh or metallic. Nor were they overly rolled-off.

As you know, I ended up with the latest Goldmund Telos 4800s. While they are better in all areas (with possible exception of bass resolution), they were also very, very costly.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think the 717s + 727 would stand as the best I heard except the option I purchased.

The 717s had incredible bass control and definition. While the 159s had more 'thump', the 717s have resolution that is the best I have experienced.

The 717s mid-range was slightly warm but incredibly resolved. I have generally felt that you kind of need to pick your preference. You can get natural, warm and holographic mid-range or you can get resolution and speed across the range. The 717s literally did it all. Ron R referred to them as some of the best SS he has ever heard (coming from a tube diehard).

The upper frequencies were never harsh or metallic. Nor were they overly rolled-off.

As you know, I ended up with the latest Goldmund Telos 4800s. While they are better in all areas (with possible exception of bass resolution), they were also very, very costly.

perfect, and that was how it seemed to me from what you wrote but not tied up with a bow like your above answer is. a real world conclusion. i realize it's one guy's opinion too, but someone who has now 'done the work' most us would have a very difficult time pulling off. thank you.

likely most here are not Telos 4800 candidates. i look forward to you expanding your comments on the new un-obtainium champ.

 

[pk_LA]

Part 7: Goldmund

This system was not in my home - I travelled to Audio Salon in Florida to hear it

Setup: dCS Rossini -> d'Agostino Relentless/Nagra Reference/Goldmund Memesis Excellence/VAC Statement pre -> Goldmund Telos 800 stereo -> Wilson XVX (Transparent Opus/Nordost Odin cabling)

I continued to feel agita - I felt that I had still not found the amplifiers that 'spoke' to me. With that, I started exploring a number of additional options. One of those was the Goldmund Telos amps. I read with great interest the thread on WBF where Thomas Li brought the Telos 8800s into his system. I even reached out to him for a perspective. After speaking with the dealer in Florida as well as the NA distributor I needed to hear the Telos amplifiers! There was one problem: the only Telos available in the country was the 800 stereo in Florida. After some conversation about the differences I decided to travel there and hear them.

Like at LMC, I wanted to begin by listening to a setup I was somewhat familiar with - a sort of poor man's baseline, if you will. So, we began with the Relentless amps. I was concerned as the setup sounded quite different to what I had heard previously. My worry was that this was going to be akin to listening at a show and making a purchase decision. Still, I had travelled from CA and I was there so I decided to make the best of it I could.

Next we listened to the Goldmund Telos 800s. I was shocked. This somewhat humble looking stereo amp was amazing. I was immediately struck by its ability to manage delicate as well as bombastic. With my Boulder 3060 I always said that it treated all source material as a nail - there was detail, drive, resolution and power, delicacy...not so much. The Telos had a slightly warm mid-range but with subtle details in songs I have never noticed. It was amazing. The bass was very good and well resolved but not what the Relentless was. It was resolute but lacked the power of the Relentless. Again, I was comparing a mid-range stereo amp to the flagship from d'Agostino. The Telos had a holgraphic soundstage akin to a SET amp. The highs were natural - never harsh, never metallic and never overpronounced or ringing. Not since the Soulution 717s had I heard an amp that had this kind of detail, balance and naturalness. I was so very happy.

I next listened to the Telos with a variety of pre-amplifiers. Since the focus of this thread is the power amps I'll keep that part brief. The My two favorites were the VAC Statement and d'Agostino Relentless. While the Statement afforded more of a warm, holographic soundstage it was the d'Agostino that ticked all the boxes - it was balanced top to bottom, it resolved, it was smooth, it was slightly sweet/warm and it had an amazing soundstage.

So, given my excitement it was time to decide which Telos to get. I ultimately decided to get the Telos 4800s. Yes, they are big - they are so large that placement is a serious issue as they interfere with the system's soundstage. But, they are also the best amplifiers I have ever heard. Ever.

So, now I finally have a system again!

dCS Varese -> d'Agostino Relentless pre -> Goldmund Telos 4800s -> Rockport Lyras + Goebel Divin Sovereigns. Cabling is TBD and currently my focus.

I will post on my impressions etc once I have a couple more weeks under my belt.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron R referred to them as some of the best SS he has ever heard (coming from a tube diehard).

You are doing a great job conveying excitedly the enthusiasm and fun, as well as the frustration, you had during this journey. Thank you for letting me join you on it!

Yes, I thought 717 sounded great!

 

[Ron Resnick]

is the preamp choice still a little unsettled?

I believe "there should be a tube somewhere in the system."

 

[pk_LA]

Pat, love the story so far. one question......you had the Soulution 727 preamp. are you saying now that is gone, replaced by the d'Ag Relentless pre as the long term choice? or mid-term choice? or is the preamp choice still a little unsettled?

Sigh. I wish I would not have gotten rid of the 727. I played that pre with several rigs including at Ron's driving his Jadis - it excelled everywhere.

So, while I now only have the d'Agostino Relentless, I wish I still had that pre. But, I am not settled yet on the pre - there's more work pending there!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I believe "there should be a tube somewhere in the system."

emphasis on the "I".

we will see whether the Lampi or dCS is the long term keeper. both maybe for awhile. and maybe the Lyra's need for tubes is less than some other choices. cable selection might be affected by the source choice he leans toward..

 

[Ron Resnick]

emphasis on the "I".

Everyone needs a tube somewhere in the system.

 

[pk_LA]

emphasis on the "I".

we will see whether the Lampi or dCS is the long term keeper. both maybe for awhile. and maybe the Lyra's need for tubes is less than some other choices. cable selection might be affected by the source choice he leans toward..

I have been shocked by the affect of cables on this system.
Current cables in testing are,
1) Transparent Opus interconnects and speaker cables
2) Siltech Triple Crown speaker cables and power cables
3) Zenwave silver and copper interconnects and power cables
4) Jorma power cables and speaker cables
5) Cardas Clear Beyond power cables

When I swap in different speaker cables it literally takes hours for the system to settle in. At the moment and as I type I am listening with,
Varese -> (Zenwave Kumihimo silver IC) -> Relentless -> (Transparent Opus) -> Telos 4800s -> (Siltech Triple Crown) -> Rockports

The Siltech cables sound horrible when you first connect them but after a couple hours they sound spectacular. Weird - I know.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have been shocked by the affect of cables on this system.
Current cables in testing are,
1) Transparent Opus interconnects and speaker cables
2) Siltech Triple Crown speaker cables and power cables
3) Zenwave silver and copper interconnects and power cables
4) Jorma power cables and speaker cables
5) Cardas Clear Beyond power cables

When I swap in different speaker cables it literally takes hours for the system to settle in. At the moment and as I type I am listening with,
Varese -> (Zenwave Kumihimo silver IC) -> Relentless -> (Transparent Opus) -> Telos 4800s -> (Siltech Triple Crown) -> Rockports

The Siltech cables sound horrible when you first connect them but after a couple hours they sound spectacular. Weird - I know.

do you have a cable cooker?

possibly if you have it on the cooker for a day (or overnight) prior to swapping you might get a more immediate consistent read. of course, sometimes dealers or manufacturers forbid it's use for demo cables. so that needs to be considered. and if you leave it on the cooker too long it can take awhile to come back to balance.

in theory the more copper, the longer the session on the cooker. there are suggestions for time based on new cables or cables that have been dormant for a period of time.

not used my cooker in a long time and have just allowed new cables to break in gradually. but some do need the cooker to open up all the way. Alan Kafton is good resource to ask about it and specific cables. read the FAQ section of the website for some guidance.

 

[Atmasphere]

It was just the warm side of neutral. But, to my ears, it sounded a bit thin.

To my way of thinking, these two are opposites. Audiophile nomenclature can be tricky.

I have generally felt that you kind of need to pick your preference. You can get natural, warm and holographic mid-range or you can get resolution and speed across the range.

I've never had to trade off between those two but that tradeoff seems to be common.

But, I am not settled yet on the pre - there's more work pending there!

The preamp is the heart of the system. If its not right you'll find it colors your impressions of everything downstream. Once you figure out the preamp you may want to revisit the amplifier issue...

 

[Ron Resnick]

The preamp is the heart of the system.

I think this is just romantic talk. I think of it at base in terms of gain structure. If the preamp provides a third of the gain, then the preamp contributes a third of the sound.

Yes, it's in front of the amplifier, so in that position it has the opportunity to color or tilt or tint or steer the sound coming out of the amplifier.

Once you figure out the preamp you may want to revisit the amplifier issue...

There's no amplifier "issue." Pat is happy with his new amplifiers.

 

[Al M.]

I have been shocked by the affect of cables on this system.
Current cables in testing are,
1) Transparent Opus interconnects and speaker cables
2) Siltech Triple Crown speaker cables and power cables
3) Zenwave silver and copper interconnects and power cables
4) Jorma power cables and speaker cables
5) Cardas Clear Beyond power cables

When I swap in different speaker cables it literally takes hours for the system to settle in. At the moment and as I type I am listening with,
Varese -> (Zenwave Kumihimo silver IC) -> Relentless -> (Transparent Opus) -> Telos 4800s -> (Siltech Triple Crown) -> Rockports

The Siltech cables sound horrible when you first connect them but after a couple hours they sound spectacular. Weird - I know.

Yes, cables can have an unexpectedly large effect. It still amazes me.

It will be interesting to see where you will land on ZenWave. I love mine. I have silver interconnects snd speaker cables, as well as copper power cords. Having compared them in my system and elsewhere, the ZenWave Kumihimo interconnects would be my endgame, even though I am already very happy with my D4.

In my last cable comparison at home I tried to make sure that I had cables break in again on the spot and to move them as little as possible during comparisons (I had them lying next to the gear when not in use). Shipping and moving cables can do some weird stuff to the sound indeed.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The preamp is the heart of the system. If its not right you'll find it colors your impressions of everything downstream. Once you figure out the preamp you may want to revisit the amplifier issue...

objectively on paper i agree. but he is way past that.

if somehow he had auditioned all these amps with some sort of outlier preamp then your comment makes sense. not what happened. he vary consciously viewed this as preamp with amp combos. i think in the context of Pat's amplifier investigations he has spent enough time with various preamp<->amp combinations that the field is quite limited and the answers to the final synergy questions are at hand for him. he as much as said the elephant in the room is the Soulution 727<->Telos 4800 combo question to answer somehow. he heard the Goldmund Memesis pre/Telos combo in Florida.

or no pre. if the Varese had a passive pre inside maybe that would be a thought too. Sentinel still possible? if you are taking no prisoners, leaving no stone unturned, then that might be an interesting question. reading the owners manual, the Telos 4800 has an 18db range of gain adjustment so precise matching with a passive preamp is realistic.

 

[AudioLibertarian]

@pk_LA
Have you considered the Orpheus brand from Swiss, or the new Stellavox amps? Orpheus also manufactures their own preamps, their flagship monoblocks and are held in very high esteem in the South East Asia & South Korea, on a par with Goldmund. I know different cultural preferences exist, nonetheless the Orpheus folks are an offshoot of the famous Anagram corporation, and I think some of their founders used to work for Goldmund. Their two-block preamp could be something special and suitable for your current set up.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I heard them on Lumen White sounds nice

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I know you don't want a tube based system, but how about having some demo listening sessions with the Aries Cerat Triode Fet technology Systems ?

 

[microstrip]

I think this is just romantic talk. I think of it at base in terms of gain structure. If the preamp provides a third of the gain, then the preamp contributes a third of the sound.

Usually the preamplifier does not contribute with gain - it attenuates the signal.

Yes, it's in front of the amplifier, so in that position it has the opportunity to color or tilt or tint or steer the sound coming out of the amplifier.

Or add noise ...

There's no amplifier "issue." Pat is happy with his new amplifiers.

Yes, once we settle in one price of gear, all else is related to it.