In Pursuit of the very best amplifier (to my ears!) money can buy...

[microstrip]

(...) or no pre. if the Varese had a passive pre inside maybe that would be a thought too. (...)

The Varese has an active buffer with switchable gain - I have used it without preamplifier. But until now I preferred it with a preamplifier, although I dream about an amplifier that I would like and sounds better without the preamplfiier. Curiously a couple of listeners preferred it without preamplifier,

 

[Ron Resnick]

I know you don't want a tube based system, but how about having some demo listening sessions with the Aries Cerat Triode Fet technology Systems ?

Thank you, but the amplifier decision is made.

 

[Kingrex]

Poor Pat. Seems some of the crowd is less than happy with his decisions.

 

[Atmasphere]

I think this is just romantic talk. I think of it at base in terms of gain structure. If the preamp provides a third of the gain, then the preamp contributes a third of the sound.

Yes, it's in front of the amplifier, so in that position it has the opportunity to color or tilt or tint or steer the sound coming out of the amplifier.

If the preamp isn't getting it right it makes no difference how good the amp and speakers are. They cannot make up for something awry upstream!

So no, its not a third of the sound (if we are ignoring the room, which is likely about 50% all by itself). Its more like 80% with the amps doing the remaining 20%, if we're going to put things in percentages. The reason is simply that the amp magnifies the preamp signal to the best of its ability which includes any weaknesses such as distortion or lack of bandwidth.

Preamps typically have far less distortion than amps do. But at the same time if the amp has a property we call 'transparency' then it becomes really important that the preamp is doing its job right, otherwise properties of the preamp may be ascribed to the amplifier.

One example of that is if you have a traditional tube preamp (and by that I mean single-ended, with a capacitor coupling to the output of the preamp) and you are using it to drive a solid state amp, you may run into problems where the preamp has troubles making bass into that amp because of that amplifier's input impedance being too low. ARC for example does not recommend using their preamps with anything less than a 30KOhm input impedance.

This can happen because the output coupling capacitor is responsible for the output impedance of the preamp being considerably higher at low frequencies than it is at 1KHz.

Just on this account one might mistakenly think that in an amp comparison, if one amp seems to play bass better, that its the fault of the amp and not the preamp.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

old rule was output impedance X min 50 times to input impedance
power amp is like magnifying glass of upstream problems incl preamp

 

[Atmasphere]

old rule was output impedance X min 50 times to input impedance
power amp is like magnifying glass of upstream problems incl preamp

Yes!! If the output impedance of the preamp is several times higher at 20Hz (which often does not show up in the specs, which usually measure that value at 1KHz) then you might have a bass problem even though the specs say you did everything right.

 

[Porsche]

ive never heard that about the vocals with the burmester 159s, perhaps its the speakers that are issue, but to each there own, enjoy

 

[pk_LA]

@pk_LA
Have you considered the Orpheus brand from Swiss, or the new Stellavox amps? Orpheus also manufactures their own preamps, their flagship monoblocks and are held in very high esteem in the South East Asia & South Korea, on a par with Goldmund. I know different cultural preferences exist, nonetheless the Orpheus folks are an offshoot of the famous Anagram corporation, and I think some of their founders used to work for Goldmund. Their two-block preamp could be something special and suitable for your current set up.

The Stellavox intrigues me for sure, While I get a bit frustrated at the obvious promotion of it here on WBF I also respect the judgement of the people who are promoting it! It is also very curious to me that Gideon (AudioArts) carries both the Burmester 159s and the Soulution 717s yet seems most enthralled by the new and somewhat mysterious Stellavox. Put another way, the Burmester and the Soulution were among my absolute favorites and it seems Gideon thinks the Stellavox is at least their peer. I am hoping to hear them at Steve Williams' soon!

 

[pk_LA]

ive never heard that about the vocals with the burmester 159s, perhaps its the speakers that are issue, but to each there own, enjoy

You might be right. When I listened to the 159s on the XVXs I did not hear the somewhat recessed vocals.

 

[pk_LA]

The Varese has an active buffer with switchable gain - I have used it without preamplifier. But until now I preferred it with a preamplifier, although I dream about an amplifier that I would like and sounds better without the preamplfiier. Curiously a couple of listeners preferred it without preamplifier,

Shocking thing about the Varese (sorry for the DAC diversion)...I have A|B'd it with a streamer+USB vs. ethernet direct and I cannot discern a material difference. I even spoke with dCS about it - they effectively smiled and said they put a lot of work into the streamer.

 

[Klonk]

I think the 717s + 727 would stand as the best I heard except the option I purchased.

The 717s had incredible bass control and definition. While the 159s had more 'thump', the 717s have resolution that is the best I have experienced.

The 717s mid-range was slightly warm but incredibly resolved. I have generally felt that you kind of need to pick your preference. You can get natural, warm and holographic mid-range or you can get resolution and speed across the range. The 717s literally did it all. Ron R referred to them as some of the best SS he has ever heard (coming from a tube diehard).

The upper frequencies were never harsh or metallic. Nor were they overly rolled-off.

As you know, I ended up with the latest Goldmund Telos 4800s. While they are better in all areas (with possible exception of bass resolution), they were also very, very costly.

Congratulations on your Goldmund Telos 4800. Since you seem to like the way the Goldmund amplifier presents music, have you ever listened to one of their active loudspeakers?

 

[Erikl]

Shocking thing about the Varese (sorry for the DAC diversion)...I have A|B'd it with a streamer+USB vs. ethernet direct and I cannot discern a material difference. I even spoke with dCS about it - they effectively smiled and said they put a lot of work into the streamer.

Pat, thank you so much for sharing your experience with these top-of-the-line amps. This is truly exciting to follow.

Don't be sorry for the DAC diversion. I noted that you previously preferred the Horizon 360 over the Varese (your post on 28 Sep). Have you changed your mind following the recent changes to your system?

I'd also be very interested to hear how the Varese compares to your MSB Select DAC (which I previously owned). Do you have the Select Director?

Thank you again for your insightful posts!

 

[vinyl_mike]

The Stellavox intrigues me for sure, While I get a bit frustrated at the obvious promotion of it here on WBF I also respect the judgement of the people who are promoting it! It is also very curious to me that Gideon (AudioArts) carries both the Burmester 159s and the Soulution 717s yet seems most enthralled by the new and somewhat mysterious Stellavox. Put another way, the Burmester and the Soulution were among my absolute favorites and it seems Gideon thinks the Stellavox is at least their peer. I am hoping to hear them at Steve Williams' soon!

Prior to my Soulution amps, I owned the predecessor of yours - the Goldmund 3300s. They were spectacular in almost every respect.

Thank you for the outstanding amp comparisons - what an amazing process. Although my journey took me from Goldmund to Stellavox, I applaud your immense passion and dedication – I’m sure that you love your 4800’s.