Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[Kingrex]

It would be interesting to know what harmonic distortion is being delivered through your utility. You could probably find something like a Fluke 345 or other models to give a sine wave and breakdown of the distortion spectra.

Like I said, my utility power is not bad, but I can easily hear the improvement with battery power. If you have terrible AC power, I would imagine that has a significant effect on your sound quality.

I was expecting to hear dynamic loss with battery power, because that’s the common narrative that gets repeated over and over.

However, I’ve heard absolutely no loss in dynamics or transient speed. If anything, it seems faster, perhaps psycho-acoustically, because of the increase in clarity.

Measured out of the Exeltech inverter:

The sine wave is smooth with less than 1% distortion.
And, fwiw, the SureTest Circuit Analyzer (which Shunyata has used in some of its demonstrations) usually shows 1.5 KA peak current and .05 Impedance ( relative to 700 A and 1.5 from Utility).

My power draw is low in my system: 320 W and my speakers are 96DB efficient. The LPO battery produces 5300 watts.

Just based on my limited experience, your 800 watt system would present no dynamics issues with a similarly sized battery/inverter.

From what you have shared with me, you are measuring with a
Alpha Lab EMI meter
Entech for RF
Shure Test for Current
And a Fluke scopemeter for THD and low level harmonics.

That is a pretty good set of inexpensive tools that will give you a good general idea what issues you are experiencing. The Alpha Lab and Entech are not that accurate. Sort of a shot gun approach. They tell you if noise is there. Just not what the actual frequency of the noise is. But, how granular is the consumer trying to get. If you know you have noise, and you plug in a filter, your going to be able to retest and see if the noise is gone. That is all we really want to know.

It would be nice if there was a tools to measure a change when using a Shunyata ground device. It would be interesting to know if anything changed. The Ground device is used after the audio equipment. So its hard to measure the affect. The internal noise of any audio device would overwhelm the low lever distortions the Alpha Lab or Entech is measuring for. The scope would tell you the power looks horrible with any audio equipment plugged into it. And I doubt that horrible wall power would be reduced by a ground box. Its the power supply that is distorting the mains power.

I would be curious to test the output distortions of an amplifier like they were doing in the article Amir linked. It would be interesting to know if a ground box improved the levels of distortion and amp creates as the power is increased. I wonder if anyone has done as such???
@Lee have you?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Once I have a stable running device, I would love to bring it by and we listen. My 3000 watt inverter feed into a 2000 watt Torus RM20 is plenty of power to drive your front end equipment. You can select what you want to plug into it. I am confident it would drive both Dartzeel without clipping. But I would think 1 per amp would be a better setup. I don't have 2 complete setup yet. I may, come PAF to have packages to sell at the show. Or to power vendors systems.

Rex, thanks for the detailed answer.

i'm open to trying your battery device(s) with a complete understanding of the logistics involved. would it plug into my duplex outlets or somehow need to be wired into the Equi=tech panel output? then snake to my gear directly somehow? not sure i'm up for that.

(EDIT) and maybe we could compare it to being plugged into my dirty outlets in-room?

Your system is a good test system. You have power that is done as best as can be. I am a firm believer in a single large high power transformer. It seems Amir is too. I do believe you do have a level of cohesion with one power source.

last time we talked some years ago about this that was the impression i got. nice to hear you still see it that way.

good power and low noise is not an accident.

That is why having multiple inverters requires a syncing device. Otherwise the frequency would be out of sync between gear. Some will say, so what? The power supply in your equipment turns the AC to DC so the matching of frequency to equipment does not matter. The other reason to sync is to attach multiple inverters to a power panel to multiply the available power. You can attach 6 inverters together. If they were 3000 wat inverters, you would have 18,000 watts of power. Divided by 120 volts and that is 150 amps. Plenty to drive any amplifier. You could easily attach your Equitech to that to distribute the power to the room.

with 97db efficient speakers my main amps are hardly pushed. and my class d bass amps are quite efficient. so even though i have 5000 watts of amplification in my system; the actual peak loads are quite modest. i have lots of sources but none are too current hungry........system preamp is battery powered......maybe the start-up draw of the hot-rodded Ampex decks and MR70 preamps are a little hungry but with a 10kva transformer i have more, a lot more, than 2x.....more like 4x transformer power grid headroom even when i'm pushing things. i never have any sense other than there is a lot more throttle i can engage. but that is just my amateur/uneducated hunch as to what is really happening. i don't really understand it all that much.

 

[Kingrex]

The app on the battery will tell the draw. Static watts in use. We could plug a amp in and see. If its truely at a range I am targeting, then try it there too.

Its 3 batteies that weigh 35 lbs each. About 10 x 12 x 12 inch each.

A inverter that is about 20 x 12 x 6 inch. Weighs about 40 lbs.

A Torus RM20. About 20 x 8 x 16 inch. 70 lbs.

The inverter and batteies have a short cord between them. About 30 inch. The inverter to Torus has a 8 to 10 foot cord. The Torus needs to be by the equipment to plug into. Or a power strip needs to be used to move the Torus further away.
All that plugs into the system is power cords. Thats it.

Technically its totally stand alone. It doesn't need to plug into anything. It's battery power. Having said that, if you need to recharge the batteries, any outlet will do. Its a noisy fan on the charger so you won't recharge when playing.

Talking about fans, the Inverter has a fan. It will kick on if the load is too high. Keeping it in a happy power range and it should never turn on. I almost got the 5000 watt inverter, but its so heavy. I'm experimenting and want to keep it light.

FWIE once I have it configured , I will send the inverter to Wil to compare to his Exeltech. I will probably borrow his inverter too. The more ears the better.

 

[Lee]

An upgrade to the Shunyata Denali X has been a surprise. The Denali was good, but they are really onto something significant with the latest technology.

Can you explain how you use the SR Tranquility Base products in your setup and what they yield? I'm thinking of trying one with the Grimm MU2 streamer/DAC and know that an in-home demo is the only way to get a definitive answer, but would value your impressions. If the changes are very subtle for one component, I probably won't bother. Thanks.

I place the Tranq Pods on top of the DAC, line stage, and phono stage. They all lowered the noise in the system.

 

[Lee]

From what you have shared with me, you are measuring with a
Alpha Lab EMI meter
Entech for RF
Shure Test for Current
And a Fluke scopemeter for THD and low level harmonics.

That is a pretty good set of inexpensive tools that will give you a good general idea what issues you are experiencing. The Alpha Lab and Entech are not that accurate. Sort of a shot gun approach. They tell you if noise is there. Just not what the actual frequency of the noise is. But, how granular is the consumer trying to get. If you know you have noise, and you plug in a filter, your going to be able to retest and see if the noise is gone. That is all we really want to know.

It would be nice if there was a tools to measure a change when using a Shunyata ground device. It would be interesting to know if anything changed. The Ground device is used after the audio equipment. So its hard to measure the affect. The internal noise of any audio device would overwhelm the low lever distortions the Alpha Lab or Entech is measuring for. The scope would tell you the power looks horrible with any audio equipment plugged into it. And I doubt that horrible wall power would be reduced by a ground box. Its the power supply that is distorting the mains power.

I would be curious to test the output distortions of an amplifier like they were doing in the article Amir linked. It would be interesting to know if a ground box improved the levels of distortion and amp creates as the power is increased. I wonder if anyone has done as such???
@Lee have you?

I've only used my critical listening skills and the lower noise floor is obvious. I do have a Trifield noise device. Maybe there is some way to use that.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The app on the battery will tell the draw. Static watts in use. We could plug a amp in and see. If its truely at a range I am targeting, then try it there too.

Its 3 batteies that weigh 35 lbs each. About 10 x 12 x 12 inch each.

A inverter that is about 20 x 12 x 6 inch. Weighs about 40 lbs.

A Torus RM20. About 20 x 8 x 16 inch. 70 lbs.

The inverter and batteies have a short cord between them. About 30 inch. The inverter to Torus has a 8 to 10 foot cord. The Torus needs to be by the equipment to plug into. Or a power strip needs to be used to move the Torus further away.
All that plugs into the system is power cords. Thats it.

Technically its totally stand alone. It doesn't need to plug into anything. It's battery power. Having said that, if you need to recharge the batteries, any outlet will do. Its a noisy fan on the charger so you won't recharge when playing.

Talking about fans, the Inverter has a fan. It will kick on if the load is too high. Keeping it in a happy power range and it should never turn on. I almost got the 5000 watt inverter, but its so heavy. I'm experimenting and want to keep it light.

FWIE once I have it configured , I will send the inverter to Wil to compare to his Exeltech. I will probably borrow his inverter too. The more ears the better.

sounds very workable. just the length and stiffness of my amp power cords might be the only possible issue. but should be fine. i have floor space along side each amp. and my amps have 20 amp IEC's so can't swap just any power cords.

and it's possible i might have different amps by the time you are ready to do it. and those new amps run mostly class A so need a bit more juice.

 

[Holmz]

Yes, my power quality is poor or it is better to say it is awful. I measured distorion in past the harmonics are there.

…

Why are the harmonics a problem?
Between the power supply’s filtering are harmonics really a problem?

I can see having a bunch of diode/LED stuff, or inverters, with super high frequencies spraying out, then maybe that is a beast of a different colour.

 

[Holmz]

From what you have shared with me, you are measuring with a
Alpha Lab EMI meter
Entech for RF
Shure Test for Current
And a Fluke scopemeter for THD and low level harmonics.

That is a pretty good set of inexpensive tools that will give you a good general idea what issues you are experiencing. The Alpha Lab and Entech are not that accurate. Sort of a shot gun approach. They tell you if noise is there. Just not what the actual frequency of the noise is. But, how granular is the consumer trying to get. If you know you have noise, and you plug in a filter, your going to be able to retest and see if the noise is gone. That is all we really want to know.

It would be nice if there was a tools to measure a change when using a Shunyata ground device. It would be interesting to know if anything changed. The Ground device is used after the audio equipment. So its hard to measure the affect. The internal noise of any audio device would overwhelm the low lever distortions the Alpha Lab or Entech is measuring for. The scope would tell you the power looks horrible with any audio equipment plugged into it. And I doubt that horrible wall power would be reduced by a ground box. Its the power supply that is distorting the mains power.

I would be curious to test the output distortions of an amplifier like they were doing in the article Amir linked. It would be interesting to know if a ground box improved the levels of distortion and amp creates as the power is increased. I wonder if anyone has done as such???
@Lee have you?

^that^ is about as cogent as it gets (IMO).

 

[Amir]

Can you tell us exactly what you mean by poor AC quality?

I know you are interested in objective measurements but I did not analyze ac power harmonics when ac quality was poor so what I say is based on my subjective listening experience.

If you are interested in measuring ac power quality it seems only voltage harmonics are not enough and finding a relation between ac power quality (sound) and the measurements is not easy.
I have no information about how to measure the ac power quality. What I know is good measurement may have no relation to good sound. I remember Romy had a UPS with perfect measurements (his friend in russia designed that UPS to beat purepower UPS) but the sound was not as good as purepower. Audio is very complex subject.
If you look at output of switzerland ABB UPS it seems everything is perfect but the sound is not good.

When AC power quality is poor I hear harsh and lifeless sound, the bass is awful, the pace and rhythm is not accurate and I feel the tempo change across the time. My pre volume range is between 0 up to 90, when ac quality is poor the sound in mid to low level volume is not good and I can not listen to my system over 60 but when AC power is good the sound is perfect at low to mid volume and I can turn volume up even at 70 without any hardhness.

When ac power is good you easily turn volume up and there is minor difference between low and high volume. When ac power is good then the sound is like good tube amplifiers but when ac power is poor I feel awful harshness.

 

[Amir]

Hello Amir!

Thank you for your reply!

Objective measurements and specifications are not how I choose audio components. I choose components based on sonic cues and emotional engagement


I agree that a good basic electrical infrastructure is important. This includes dedicated AC lines and a low measured resistance to ground and no hum from ground loops.

Otherwise, I do not prioritize low noise floor and black background above other sonic characteristics which, for me, are sonic cues for emotional engagement and my personal hobby objectives.


This is a wildly hyperbolic exaggeration and fake quantification of subjective sonic differences.

Thank you Ron for your description.

I do not claim Benchmark Media products are musical or not, I did not listen to Benchmark products yet but what I say is both Benchmark and FM acoustics published very good article about noise and they helped me to understand the proper way to setup my system for best signal to noise ratio. Roy gregory, Stirling Trayle and Russandrew company all speak about importance of ac power quality and proper way of ac installation.
David @ddk also now use a new ac power system.

Most of the time the when we use ac filters or ac cables we feel blacker background, I do not like that black background and I believe the proper way of increasing Signal to noise without killing dynamics will give me more silence and purity (also tone color) not more black/dead sound.

 

[Amir]

This is a wildly hyperbolic exaggeration and fake quantification of subjective sonic differences.

Ron,
I have a small sony cassette tape player ($100) and also a panasonic system ($400) in my bedroom, I swear both sony and panasonic are better than my $700k TAD when AC quality is awful.

 

[Amir]

Rex,

this discussion is over my head for the most part but i try to follow along. a question for you.

you have been in my room many times. i am very happy with my Equi-tech 10WQ panel + #10 Romex + all Furutech NCF outlets. whenever i compare it to my dirty outlets i prefer my Equi-tech 'grid' on all counts. should i think about alternatives such as add-on conditioners or batteries? or just go along with what i have?

i respect that a big Stromtank or what you are designing might offer some degree of improvement. knowing my set up is it something i should consider? or likely not much of a step up? if i did add something would it fit properly with the Equi=tech? i'm very happy with my dynamics and drive and noise levels. but i don't know what i don't know. i'd like to think i can just check these things off my list as done and done.

and maybe my whole system seeing the same grid helps with cohesion? adding some other 'boosters/conditioners/batteries' might upset the balance? guessing about that.

Mike,
Your isolation transformer can give you balanced power and balanced power can reduce noise. I like lower level of noise but the problem is my TAD sounds better when the power is not balanced and the best sound come from positive (proper) ac polarity.

I have listened to my TAD in three different ways:
A - proper ac polarity (higher chassis voltage around 120 volts)
B- inverted ac polarity (lower chassis voltage around 50 volts)
C- balanced power (zero chassis voltage = lowest noise floor)

I have listened many times so I am sure the A is far better than B and C.

Clark Johnson had an article about polarity it is very important article but I did not find the paper version.

 

[Amir]

Once I have a stable running device, I would love to bring it by and we listen. My 3000 watt inverter feed into a 2000 watt Torus RM20 is plenty of power to drive your front end equipment. You can select what you want to plug into it. I am confident it would drive both Dartzeel without clipping. But I would think 1 per amp would be a better setup. I don't have 2 complete setup yet. I may, come PAF to have packages to sell at the show. Or to power vendors systems.

Your system is a good test system. You have power that is done as best as can be. I am a firm believer in a single large high power transformer. It seems Amir is too. I do believe you do have a level of cohesion with one power source. That is why having multiple inverters requires a syncing device. Otherwise the frequency would be out of sync between gear. Some will say, so what? The power supply in your equipment turns the AC to DC so the matching of frequency to equipment does not matter. The other reason to sync is to attach multiple inverters to a power panel to multiply the available power. You can attach 6 inverters together. If they were 3000 wat inverters, you would have 18,000 watts of power. Divided by 120 volts and that is 150 amps. Plenty to drive any amplifier. You could easily attach your Equitech to that to distribute the power to the room.

Can you use three 3000w inverter (one for left dartzeel power, one for right dartzeel power and one for pre/source/…) ?

I think three inverters (in equal phase) maybe interesting test for Mike’s system