Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[Amir]

I think susceptibility to noise by the components and the noise in the environment is the biggest driver of will a ground box work at all.

I get Lee is a Shunyata fanboy. I am a Torus fanboy. Being as such, I highly doubt he would tell someone to stop at 1 if you heard a positive affect. I doubt he would say stop at a entry level cable. I would assume he would follow the official Shunyata speak that says the more the better and the higher quality the ground cable the better. And then you need to plug it into an Everest for the highest effect. That is what all the users I have talked to tell me. They find better cables give a more pronounced affect. They find multiple boxes are better than 1.

Look, Entreq and other are the same. You don't stop with one box. Its a rabbit hole. Similar to how Steve went down the Schnerzinger hole. Its like crack. Accept the first wack ain't free. But once your on, you want more and more.
You can pitch it from any angle. If it didn't work, you need more to make it work. If it did work, you need more as you have issues and really need to repair the system.
Its sort of like, why half Auu it. Right. If your going to do something, do it right. And in the end, you spend about $17,000.

I think lowering noise and increasing SNR is very very important but most emi/rf filters, ac filters, ac cables, ac conditioners all kill micro dynamics and emotion of music. The proper solution is very hard to achieve. I have tried many devices for ac power quality for many years but never find the right solution

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...have you tried a TT7 from Sound Application? I have been using one for 3-4 years, and there is no loss of...anything one could hear.

Sound Application TT-7 AC Power Distributor

It seems to me that the genre of power-line conditioners has seen little progress over the past decade, with no compelling new product introductions. Over

www.theabsolutesound.com

 

[wil]

I think lowering noise and increasing SNR is very very important but most emi/rf filters, ac filters, ac cables, ac conditioners all kill micro dynamics and emotion of music. The proper solution is very hard to achieve. I have tried many devices for ac power quality for many years but never find the right solution

Do you have poor Utility power? Have you measured distortion levels?

I have pretty good utility power, less than 3% THD with no fifth harmonic, but have been experimenting with battery power the last few months, and it gives me a more transparent sound without any tradeoffs that I’m hearing.

At present, I’m following the inverter with the Torus RM 20 and an OnFilter 6 outlet EMI filter. I’m going to experiment with dropping the Torus and only using the OnFilter. But, I wouldn’t be surprised if both are a good combination used together.

Interestingly, my battery compared to utility power sounded a little thin by comparison for several weeks at first. But, that is history as the battery sound is just as full as utility sound now. I can only guess that this transformation is due to the inverter “burning in.“ The inverter is made by Exeltech and puts out less than one percent THD.

For anyone struggling with poor utility power, I would definitely recommend looking into a good battery/inverter power your system.

@Kingrex spent hours consulting with me to help get my DIY set up optimally and safely set up. He is developing a “plug and play” Battery system that will likely be very good!

 

[Kingrex]

Do you have poor Utility power? Have you measured distortion levels?

I have pretty good utility power, less than 3% THD with no fifth harmonic, but have been experimenting with battery power the last few months, and it gives me a more transparent sound without any tradeoffs that I’m hearing.

At present, I’m following the inverter with the Torus RM 20 and an OnFilter 6 outlet EMI filter. I’m going to experiment with dropping the Torus and only using the OnFilter. But, I wouldn’t be surprised if both are a good combination used together.

Interestingly, my battery compared to utility power sounded a little thin by comparison for several weeks at first. But, that is history as the battery sound is just as full as utility sound now. I can only guess that this transformation is due to the inverter “burning in.“ The inverter is made by Exeltech and puts out less than one percent THD.

For anyone struggling with poor utility power, I would definitely recommend looking into a good battery/inverter power your system.

@Kingrex spent hours consulting with me to help get my DIY set up optimally and safely set up. He is developing a “plug and play” Battery system that will likely be very good!

I am close. Its all about fusing, disconnecting and the cables that put it all together. It needs to be an assembly you set on the floor and plug a few plugs together and it runs. I can't have people getting out wrenches like Wil did to put it all together.
Fan noise is another issue. Stromtank is silent. I need to get to silent too. I am working with 2000W, 3000W, 4000W and 6000W inverters. Divide those by 120 volts and that is the ampacity put out by the inverter. I don's see the need to go past 2000 to 3000 watts. That's the limit of the Torus RM20. If you need more power, you get a second inverter. There is a little more complexity with a second inverter. That requires a syncing module that is connects both inverters with a RJ45 so they output the exact same sine wave with the frequency matched.

The inverters do make their own noise. I have reached out to a lot of people doing this. Most all say a good isolation transformer is the best filter to follow the inverter with. I don't know why as it not as effective at filtering all the noise as others. But the musicality seems to be the highest. Sometimes tamping too much noise takes the life of the music. I am not sure why.

I find it exciting. Wil's power is good. His THD from the road is low. He has optimized his main service and uses one of my all copper subpanels. With that, a Battery and Inverter are matching and exceeding that performance. I told a guy the other day, don't buy my panel. Try a battery inverter. Currently its probably about $10,000 for a complete setup. That includes the Torus. But measure that to a new subpanel, wiring a room and paying an electrician. You have a product you set on the floor and when you move, you take it with you. If you are in a high lightning prone area, and you use a optical isolator on the ethernet cable, you are very immune from danger. Not completely as you ground the secondary of the system. But its a lot better than a utility connected system.

 

[Kingrex]

I think lowering noise and increasing SNR is very very important but most emi/rf filters, ac filters, ac cables, ac conditioners all kill micro dynamics and emotion of music. The proper solution is very hard to achieve. I have tried many devices for ac power quality for many years but never find the right solution

I agree. They seem to over filter. Its one thing to clean up a picture on a surgery device. Its another to remove enough from an audio system without it having a negative affect. Its an odd conundrum. The pure math people can't accept that close to 0 noise is not as good as a little noise getting through.

I have heard some say its the impedance and instant power delivery that is reduced by a transformer. A transformer has a pretty profound impact on Impedance and power delivery, yet it almost always sounds better with one. I attribute that to, you went from say 400A peak power to 270 amps peak power. That still give you 270A x 120V = 32,400 watts power. Can anyone show me an amplifier that would feel hobbled with that much available power at the wall. There is still plenty of power and the noise is reduced.

 

[Lee]

I think lowering noise and increasing SNR is very very important but most emi/rf filters, ac filters, ac cables, ac conditioners all kill micro dynamics and emotion of music. The proper solution is very hard to achieve. I have tried many devices for ac power quality for many years but never find the right solution

That’s not been my experience with Shunyata or Synergistic Research. In fact, the sonic theme is more about hearing more microdynamics from a lowered noise floor.

 

[Lee]

I agree. They seem to over filter. Its one thing to clean up a picture on a surgery device. Its another to remove enough from an audio system without it having a negative affect. Its an odd conundrum. The pure math people can't accept that close to 0 noise is not as good as a little noise getting through.

I have heard some say its the impedance and instant power delivery that is reduced by a transformer. A transformer has a pretty profound impact on Impedance and power delivery, yet it almost always sounds better with one. I attribute that to, you went from say 400A peak power to 270 amps peak power. That still give you 270A x 120V = 32,400 watts power. Can anyone show me an amplifier that would feel hobbled with that much available power at the wall. There is still plenty of power and the noise is reduced.

Maybe the key is to look for devices without a transformer.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have tried many devices for ac power quality for many years but never find the right solution

Maybe because actually there's no problem?

 

[Amir]

...have you tried a TT7 from Sound Application? I have been using one for 3-4 years, and there is no loss of...anything one could hear.

Sound Application TT-7 AC Power Distributor

It seems to me that the genre of power-line conditioners has seen little progress over the past decade, with no compelling new product introductions. Over

www.theabsolutesound.com

No I did not.
I read your link :

“It seems to me that the genre of power-line conditioners has seen little progress over the past decade, with no compelling new product introductions. Over the years, many devices have been marketed in an effort to clean up power-line noise due to conducted radio frequency interference (RFI) and electromagnetic interference (EMI). I have experimented with a host of such devices, including isolation transformers, line filters, and AC regenerators, but in hindsight it is clear that they didn’t achieve more than limited success.
Dick Olsher”

I think what Dick Olsher said is true.

 

[Amir]

Do you have poor Utility power? Have you measured distortion levels?

I have pretty good utility power, less than 3% THD with no fifth harmonic, but have been experimenting with battery power the last few months, and it gives me a more transparent sound without any tradeoffs that I’m hearing.

At present, I’m following the inverter with the Torus RM 20 and an OnFilter 6 outlet EMI filter. I’m going to experiment with dropping the Torus and only using the OnFilter. But, I wouldn’t be surprised if both are a good combination used together.

Interestingly, my battery compared to utility power sounded a little thin by comparison for several weeks at first. But, that is history as the battery sound is just as full as utility sound now. I can only guess that this transformation is due to the inverter “burning in.“ The inverter is made by Exeltech and puts out less than one percent THD.

For anyone struggling with poor utility power, I would definitely recommend looking into a good battery/inverter power your system.

@Kingrex spent hours consulting with me to help get my DIY set up optimally and safely set up. He is developing a “plug and play” Battery system that will likely be very good!

Yes, my power quality is poor or it is better to say it is awful. I measured distorion in past the harmonics are there.

Thank you for your recommendation.

I used swiss UPS ABB (20kva) and also purepower ups (2.5kva) and also some other ups, avr and isolation transformer.

Battery mode (off grid) is more clean and silent but there is no dynamics. I am trying to use two inverter in series plus isolation transformer between two inverter.
Victron inverter has an internal isolation transformer to produce pure sinewave.

Battery -> Victron Inverter -> Purepower UPS -> …

I have no idea about the result but I guess it will not be perfect.

 

[Amir]

I agree. They seem to over filter. Its one thing to clean up a picture on a surgery device. Its another to remove enough from an audio system without it having a negative affect. Its an odd conundrum. The pure math people can't accept that close to 0 noise is not as good as a little noise getting through.

I have heard some say its the impedance and instant power delivery that is reduced by a transformer. A transformer has a pretty profound impact on Impedance and power delivery, yet it almost always sounds better with one. I attribute that to, you went from say 400A peak power to 270 amps peak power. That still give you 270A x 120V = 32,400 watts power. Can anyone show me an amplifier that would feel hobbled with that much available power at the wall. There is still plenty of power and the noise is reduced.

Between ac filters I think big isolation transformer is overally better than those filters. Wavac use Denkenseiki isolation transformer for power purity.
High power low capacitance isolation transformers like 20KVA Or 30KVA denkenseiki nct-g series are better than most ac solutions in this industry.

If you read FM acoustics article about needed power, they claim Amplifier’s Linear power supply draw current just at peak of voltage in very short time so the ac power should handle over 60A current without any distortion. It means most class ab audio systems needs over 20kva linear power.

I checked my TAD system , the RMS power is less than 800w but TAD needs over 15kva UPS to give me full dynamics without compression

 

[Amir]

Maybe because actually there's no problem?

Ron,

Benchmark media produce low distortion dac and pre power amplifier in USA. They optimised everything even speaker terminal to reach highest signal to noise and maximum resolution (around 21 bit).

If you read their article about “clean audio installation” they describe how “poor ac power quality, poor rf rejecting, poor system setup, poor grounding, ground loops” can degrade the sound.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0321/7609/files/caig.pdf?264

This is my real listening experience over three years:

If my TAD system resolution is around 20bit (for example) then I will hear less than 12bit resolution when AC quality is poor. It means if you pay million dollars for an audiosystem then poor ac power can desgrade it to a cheap $500 sony.

 

[microstrip]

Maybe because actually there's no problem?

Great question. Mains power is an electrical sinusoidal signal with 50 or 60Hz, having harmonic distortion and RF noise. As such it can be measured and diagnosed. If we just keep changing conditioners we are most probably listening to weak links in our systems.

A decent AC voltmeter will cost around $50. Debating our particular findings without it is coffee talk. All IMO, YMMV.

 

[microstrip]

(...) If my TAD system resolution is around 20bit (for example) then I will hear less than 12bit resolution when AC quality is poor. It means if you pay million dollars for an audiosystem then poor ac power can desgrade it to a cheap $500 sony.

Can you tell us exactly what you mean by poor AC quality?

 

[wil]

Yes, my power quality is poor or it is better to say it is awful. I measured distorion in past the harmonics are there.

Thank you for your recommendation.

I used swiss UPS ABB (20kva) and also purepower ups (2.5kva) and also some other ups, avr and isolation transformer.

Battery mode (off grid) is more clean and silent but there is no dynamics. I am trying to use two inverter in series plus isolation transformer between two inverter.
Victron inverter has an internal isolation transformer to produce pure sinewave.

Battery -> Victron Inverter -> Purepower UPS -> …

I have no idea about the result but I guess it will not be perfect.

It would be interesting to know what harmonic distortion is being delivered through your utility. You could probably find something like a Fluke 345 or other models to give a sine wave and breakdown of the distortion spectra.

Like I said, my utility power is not bad, but I can easily hear the improvement with battery power. If you have terrible AC power, I would imagine that has a significant effect on your sound quality.

I was expecting to hear dynamic loss with battery power, because that’s the common narrative that gets repeated over and over.

However, I’ve heard absolutely no loss in dynamics or transient speed. If anything, it seems faster, perhaps psycho-acoustically, because of the increase in clarity.

Measured out of the Exeltech inverter:

The sine wave is smooth with less than 1% distortion.
And, fwiw, the SureTest Circuit Analyzer (which Shunyata has used in some of its demonstrations) usually shows 1.5 KA peak current and .05 Impedance ( relative to 700 A and 1.5 from Utility).

My power draw is low in my system: 320 W and my speakers are 96DB efficient. The LPO battery produces 5300 watts.

Just based on my limited experience, your 800 watt system would present no dynamics issues with a similarly sized battery/inverter.

 

[microstrip]

(...) My power draw is low in my system: 320 W and my speakers are 96DB efficient. The LPO battery produces 5300 watts.

Are your amplifiers always in class A at the lowest impedance of your speakers?

Just based on my limited experience, your 800 watt system would present no dynamics issues with a similarly sized battery/inverter.

We must remember that sometimes when people get a less distorted sound they find it less dynamic.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Benchmark media produce low distortion dac and pre power amplifier in USA. They optimised everything even speaker terminal to reach highest signal to noise and maximum resolution (around 21 bit).

Hello Amir!

Thank you for your reply!

Objective measurements and specifications are not how I choose audio components. I choose components based on sonic cues and emotional engagement

If you read their article about “clean audio installation” they describe how “poor ac power quality, poor rf rejecting, poor system setup, poor grounding, ground loops” can degrade the sound.

I agree that a good basic electrical infrastructure is important. This includes dedicated AC lines and a low measured resistance to ground and no hum from ground loops.

Otherwise, I do not prioritize low noise floor and black background above other sonic characteristics which, for me, are sonic cues for emotional engagement and my personal hobby objectives.

It means if you pay million dollars for an audiosystem then poor ac power can desgrade it to a cheap $500 sony.

This is a wildly hyperbolic exaggeration and fake quantification of subjective sonic differences.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am close. Its all about fusing, disconnecting and the cables that put it all together. It needs to be an assembly you set on the floor and plug a few plugs together and it runs. I can't have people getting out wrenches like Wil did to put it all together.
Fan noise is another issue. Stromtank is silent. I need to get to silent too. I am working with 2000W, 3000W, 4000W and 6000W inverters. Divide those by 120 volts and that is the ampacity put out by the inverter. I don's see the need to go past 2000 to 3000 watts. That's the limit of the Torus RM20. If you need more power, you get a second inverter. There is a little more complexity with a second inverter. That requires a syncing module that is connects both inverters with a RJ45 so they output the exact same sine wave with the frequency matched.

The inverters do make their own noise. I have reached out to a lot of people doing this. Most all say a good isolation transformer is the best filter to follow the inverter with. I don't know why as it not as effective at filtering all the noise as others. But the musicality seems to be the highest. Sometimes tamping too much noise takes the life of the music. I am not sure why.

I find it exciting. Wil's power is good. His THD from the road is low. He has optimized his main service and uses one of my all copper subpanels. With that, a Battery and Inverter are matching and exceeding that performance. I told a guy the other day, don't buy my panel. Try a battery inverter. Currently its probably about $10,000 for a complete setup. That includes the Torus. But measure that to a new subpanel, wiring a room and paying an electrician. You have a product you set on the floor and when you move, you take it with you. If you are in a high lightning prone area, and you use a optical isolator on the ethernet cable, you are very immune from danger. Not completely as you ground the secondary of the system. But its a lot better than a utility connected system.

Rex,

this discussion is over my head for the most part but i try to follow along. a question for you.

you have been in my room many times. i am very happy with my Equi-tech 10WQ panel + #10 Romex + all Furutech NCF outlets. whenever i compare it to my dirty outlets i prefer my Equi-tech 'grid' on all counts. should i think about alternatives such as add-on conditioners or batteries? or just go along with what i have?

i respect that a big Stromtank or what you are designing might offer some degree of improvement. knowing my set up is it something i should consider? or likely not much of a step up? if i did add something would it fit properly with the Equi=tech? i'm very happy with my dynamics and drive and noise levels. but i don't know what i don't know. i'd like to think i can just check these things off my list as done and done.

and maybe my whole system seeing the same grid helps with cohesion? adding some other 'boosters/conditioners/batteries' might upset the balance? guessing about that.

 

[Kingrex]

Rex,

this discussion is over my head for the most part but i try to follow along. a question for you.

you have been in my room many times. i am very happy with my Equi-tech 10WQ panel + #10 Romex + all Furutech NCF outlets. whenever i compare it to my dirty outlets i prefer my Equi-tech 'grid' on all counts. should i think about alternatives such as add-on conditioners or batteries? or just go along with what i have?

i respect that a big Stromtank or what you are designing might offer some degree of improvement. knowing my set up is it something i should consider? or likely not much of a step up? if i did add something would it fit properly with the Equi=tech? i'm very happy with my dynamics and drive and noise levels. but i don't know what i don't know. i'd like to think i can just check these things off my list as done and done.

and maybe my whole system seeing the same grid helps with cohesion? adding some other 'boosters/conditioners/batteries' might upset the balance? guessing about that.

Once I have a stable running device, I would love to bring it by and we listen. My 3000 watt inverter feed into a 2000 watt Torus RM20 is plenty of power to drive your front end equipment. You can select what you want to plug into it. I am confident it would drive both Dartzeel without clipping. But I would think 1 per amp would be a better setup. I don't have 2 complete setup yet. I may, come PAF to have packages to sell at the show. Or to power vendors systems.

Your system is a good test system. You have power that is done as best as can be. I am a firm believer in a single large high power transformer. It seems Amir is too. I do believe you do have a level of cohesion with one power source. That is why having multiple inverters requires a syncing device. Otherwise the frequency would be out of sync between gear. Some will say, so what? The power supply in your equipment turns the AC to DC so the matching of frequency to equipment does not matter. The other reason to sync is to attach multiple inverters to a power panel to multiply the available power. You can attach 6 inverters together. If they were 3000 wat inverters, you would have 18,000 watts of power. Divided by 120 volts and that is 150 amps. Plenty to drive any amplifier. You could easily attach your Equitech to that to distribute the power to the room.

 

[PYP]

That’s not been my experience with Shunyata or Synergistic Research. In fact, the sonic theme is more about hearing more microdynamics from a lowered noise floor.

An upgrade to the Shunyata Denali X has been a surprise. The Denali was good, but they are really onto something significant with the latest technology.

Can you explain how you use the SR Tranquility Base products in your setup and what they yield? I'm thinking of trying one with the Grimm MU2 streamer/DAC and know that an in-home demo is the only way to get a definitive answer, but would value your impressions. If the changes are very subtle for one component, I probably won't bother. Thanks.