Noise. That damned demon you may not even know about...

[MarkusBarkus]

...I think the Luxy stuff is still double-insulated chassis, floating ground, Class II, whatever they're calling it. Esoteric too IIRC, although the Luxy is what I had. None of that Shunyata ground stuff was recommended for that gear.

 

[Amir]

...Japanese gear typically has a "floating" ground, not tied to safety ground. Not all, but not uncommon, for example.

Floating ground is class II and my TAD system is class II.

Appliance classes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Is Proper class II design better than class I design? I do not know the right answer but I think so.

we have no need to have earth wire and the earth wire in class I equipments are just for safety.

 

[Amir]

check here good article from benchmark audio

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0321/7609/files/caig.pdf?264

It seems the best audio installation is :



1- all transport/dac/pre/power are class II (no earth wire, 2 pin ac input)
2- all xlr interconnects are like the picture (capacitor parallel to resistor at the end of xlr connector)
3- the chassis of all transport/dac/pre/power are connected (star ground configuration) together with awg 3 ground cable

In this configuration there is no ground loop

 

[Amir]

...I think the Luxy stuff is still double-insulated chassis, floating ground, Class II, whatever they're calling it. Esoteric too IIRC, although the Luxy is what I had. None of that Shunyata ground stuff was recommended for that gear.

Esoteric is class II?

 

[Lee]

I read the guide. The first few pages are the only pages that capture my attention as that is a field I am interested in. Those pages seem to be a copy of Grounding and Shielding Techniques in Instrumentation, Ralph Morrison,. I have the book and have talked about his techniques in the past.

The author was not very clear on if he was using a isolated ground duplex or not. And he was calling out a #14 or larger ground wire. NEC would say it has to be a #12 or larger. He also had nothing to talk about twisting wire which Bill Whitlock went over extensively, and it matters. I have measured many branch wires and a twisted hot and neutral with a loose ground can read 0 mV of potential between the ground and neutral out past 70 feet of branch wire at the duplex when done right. He kept talking about a star ground which you can't do in a panel. And said nothing about how you should land the wires in a panel. Outside stay on the same phase. He did not address what sort of panel you should get. There are numerous choices. And when this was written, you could select all copper panels from SqD in the NQ line. Crickets on that subject. And it matters.

Quickly he got into balanced cabling which my stereo is not. A lot of it looked like Ralph Morrison's book again. I did like how he was using a cap and resistors at the load end of a balanced interconnect to minimize the cable shield from becoming an antenna.

I would also point out, I am a big Torus fan. I tell everyone you should get one. If your running a high power stereo with many branch wires to the room, you should have a single high power Torus with a all copper distribution panel behind it. That is what the author stated also. That is what Art Kelm of Ground One has done in maybe 250 recording studio around the world. Its is a know, effective and documented technique to isolate the audio system from the rest of the world, It is by no means a brick wall. Many will want to add additional filters as needed for particular pieces of equipment. But it is a foundation piece that works extremely well. Yes I am a dealer. But I'm not really working, so I am more a unpaid advocate.

All in all if you had a balanced system and followed the guide, you would end up with a low noise stereo. Its a good guide. I can also see a little better why a external ground box may work well. They have always bothered me as they are a parallel path for parasitic noise to travel in the system. I don't really get how they work. But enough people have them and swear by them so they must work. FWIW, I have tried the basic lashing of ground studs from equipment to a star point with all sorts of gauges and wire materials. As well as bonding that the earth or not. I have never heard a thing. I only tied one very low $$$ ground device and it did nothing. I have never tried and Entreq or Shunyata. I have avoided Shunyata because a few people told me $4000 invested in it did little. You had to drop more like $17,000 or more into the ground equipment before it really became a notable improvement. If you have too much money and don't want to die with it, get a large assortment of Shunyata ground devices and cables and give it a try. I would wager in favor of it reducing noise effectively.

Edit
I forgot to add something. The author and many other places you hear people saying get the utility to change the transformer. Thats an idea. But I don't think it's as good an idea as placing a all copper NQ subpanel at the room. Then feeding a Torus from that subpanel. Then using a all copper Benjamin to feed circuits for audio around the room. You want the SqD NQ subpanel as you also want a couple circuits that are not through the isolation transformer. You don't know. You want options.

I can tell you the Altaira on my main system along with a Gemini-4 from Shunyata on the Arris router made for a significantly lower noise floor here.

 

[Kingrex]

check here good article from benchmark audio

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0321/7609/files/caig.pdf?264

It seems the best audio installation is :

View attachment 161065

1- all transport/dac/pre/power are class II (no earth wire, 2 pin ac input)
2- all xlr interconnects are like the picture (capacitor parallel to resistor at the end of xlr connector)
3- the chassis of all transport/dac/pre/power are connected (star ground configuration) together with awg 3 ground cable

In this configuration there is no ground loop

I don't get the need for the star ground. What is it doing. Your making a parallel path on the negative of the circuit between the 2 devices. The chassis is already bonded through the shield of the cable. Although with the star, you are avoiding and extra resistor with bypass cap built into the shield of the cable. And all of that is tied to the negative of the circuit through a resistor on each component. So what does the star do.

Do you offer clients inexpensive cables. Like $400 cables that are configured properly with with bypass cap and resistor built in first, before you sell them a cable for thousands? If you do, does the expensive cable sound better. Atmasphere seems to say it should not have any voice at all. Either of them. Expensive or inexpensive. If you follow approved communications standards. Which the link Amir attached is advocating for. And as I see it, is accurate. That's how I would wire a studio. And for the most part, a home.

 

[Kingrex]

I can tell you the Altaira on my main system along with a Gemini-4 from Shunyata on the Arris router made for a significantly lower noise floor here.

I have heard more people say a single ground box and entry level cable do nothing to very subtle. Even Shunyata has 2 types of ground boxes. And a big delta in price in ground cables. And some convincing literature that says the better cables are technically better. Almost making you wonder why you would waste money on a lesser cable. But the expensive cables can cost as much as your amps or preamps, so its a barrier to entry.

I accept you like a single box and a Gemini-4. Not sure where a Gemini-4 cable falls in the hierarchy. But I can see a lot of reasons why a minimum of 2 boxes is required and why 3 would be even better if you have digital. And why the more expensive cables matter. And now we are at $17,000 in grounding equipment.

Again, not saying it does no work. Quite the opposite.

 

[Lee]

I have heard more people say a single ground box and entry level cable do nothing to very subtle. Even Shunyata has 2 types of ground boxes. And a big delta in price in ground cables. And some convincing literature that says the better cables are technically better. Almost making you wonder why you would waste money on a lesser cable. But the expensive cables can cost as much as your amps or preamps, so its a barrier to entry.

I accept you like a single box and a Gemini-4. Not sure where a Gemini-4 cable falls in the hierarchy. But I can see a lot of reasons why a minimum of 2 boxes is required and why 3 would be even better if you have digital. And why the more expensive cables matter. And now we are at $17,000 in grounding equipment.

Again, not saying it does no work. Quite the opposite.

oh it works really well but the correct implementation is essential. It’s possible the people who think it’s subtle don’t have a good setup, a good Shunyata implementation, or good critical listening skills.

In my setup, I started with the original Altaira boxes going into Alpha ground cables into a Denali LE tower. It made an improvement. Grant at Shunyata showed me how to attach a ground wire to a screw on my amplifier. That made a tremendous improvement. Then they sent an Omega ground wire to connect the Denali to the Everest I had on the amp and subs. That took things up another notch.

The sound impact was the system sounds effortless. Low noise is my favorite drug. I like it even more than a dirty martini.

The Gemini-4 lowered noise on just the router. It’s in my closet with all the network stuff.

The impact was more clarity on streaming. More presence in the music.

 

[Kingrex]

oh it works really well but the correct implementation is essential. It’s possible the people who think it’s subtle don’t have a good setup, a good Shunyata implementation, or good critical listening skills.

That's a shit comment.
Maybe they have an superior setup with superior power and don't need the ground box????? Who's to say. But disparaging someone else experience as their equipment is crap is low class.

 

[Lee]

That's a shit comment.
Maybe they have an superior setup with superior power and don't need the ground box????? Who's to say. But disparaging someone else experience as their equipment is crap is low class.

I said it was a possibility. That is based on prior experience where people have differing views. Also, I think there is component to component noise that perhaps superior power won’t remedy.

 

[Lee]

Alternatively, with good setup, good listening, and good implementation it’s possible that Altaira makes more subtle differences in other situations. I tend to discount that however given the results I have seen across several systems.

 

[Lee]

Also, I said setup not equipment. A less expensive system with proper setup can outperform very expensive systems.

 

[Kingrex]

I think susceptibility to noise by the components and the noise in the environment is the biggest driver of will a ground box work at all.

I get Lee is a Shunyata fanboy. I am a Torus fanboy. Being as such, I highly doubt he would tell someone to stop at 1 if you heard a positive affect. I doubt he would say stop at a entry level cable. I would assume he would follow the official Shunyata speak that says the more the better and the higher quality the ground cable the better. And then you need to plug it into an Everest for the highest effect. That is what all the users I have talked to tell me. They find better cables give a more pronounced affect. They find multiple boxes are better than 1.

Look, Entreq and other are the same. You don't stop with one box. Its a rabbit hole. Similar to how Steve went down the Schnerzinger hole. Its like crack. Accept the first wack ain't free. But once your on, you want more and more.
You can pitch it from any angle. If it didn't work, you need more to make it work. If it did work, you need more as you have issues and really need to repair the system.
Its sort of like, why half Auu it. Right. If your going to do something, do it right. And in the end, you spend about $17,000.

 

[Lee]

I think susceptibility to noise by the components and the noise in the environment is the biggest driver of will a ground box work at all.

I get Lee is a Shunyata fanboy. I am a Torus fanboy. Being as such, I highly doubt he would tell someone to stop at 1 if you heard a positive affect. I doubt he would say stop at a entry level cable. I would assume he would follow the official Shunyata speak that says the more the better and the higher quality the ground cable the better. And then you need to plug it into an Everest for the highest effect. That is what all the users I have talked to tell me. They find better cables give a more pronounced affect. They find multiple boxes are better than 1.

Look, Entreq and other are the same. You don't stop with one box. Its a rabbit hole. Similar to how Steve went down the Schnerzinger hole. Its like crack. Accept the first wack ain't free. But once your on, you want more and more.
You can pitch it from any angle. If it didn't work, you need more to make it work. If it did work, you need more as you have issues and really need to repair the system.
Its sort of like, why half Auu it. Right. If your going to do something, do it right. And in the end, you spend about $17,000.

I don’t seek to be a fanboy of any brand. I like to try a variety of things and see what works.

You don’t have to buy an Everest -X or Altaira-X. You spend a couple of thousand and buy a Gemini.

Ultimately it’s about personal responsibility. It’s a consumer choice how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

But as a reviewer, I hope it’s helpful and valuable to explain what you get at each step.

 

[Holmz]

I think susceptibility to noise by the components and the noise in the environment is the biggest driver of will a ground box work at all.

I get Lee is a Shunyata fanboy. I am a Torus fanboy. Being as such, I highly doubt he would tell someone to stop at 1 if you heard a positive affect. I doubt he would say stop at a entry level cable. I would assume he would follow the official Shunyata speak that says the more the better and the higher quality the ground cable the better. And then you need to plug it into an Everest for the highest effect. That is what all the users I have talked to tell me. They find better cables give a more pronounced affect. They find multiple boxes are better than 1.

Look, Entreq and other are the same. You don't stop with one box. Its a rabbit hole. Similar to how Steve went down the Schnerzinger hole. Its like crack. Accept the first wack ain't free. But once your on, you want more and more.
You can pitch it from any angle. If it didn't work, you need more to make it work. If it did work, you need more as you have issues and really need to repair the system.
It’s sort of like, why half Auu it. Right. If you’re going to do something, do it right. And in the end, you spend about $17,000.

With XMAS so close, I was thinking I might try and figure out how get the reindeer excrement and DIY some boxes.

However that may not work here:

 

[Kingrex]

With XMAS so close, I was thinking I might try and figure out how get the reindeer excrement and DIY some boxes.

However that may not work here:
View attachment 161146

I hear its hit and miss with DIY. There is something to the mix of materials. And the cables. I would buy a premade kit. Cable and box.

 

[Holmz]

There is something to be said for capacity coupling the balanced to RCA shells.
And sometimes ground “straps” are wide and for more for high frequency than for DC.

 

[JayR]

Are there any devices to measure “noise”? We are in a new house that we built. We upgraded the transformer that supplies our house, copper panels, and dedicated lines for the stereo system. I have always wondered how all this has impacted our system. Would be interesting to find out.

 

[treitz3]

EMI/RFI/Noise Testing of Power Conditioners and Power Cables

Has anyone used a EMI/RFI interference or line distortion testing device such at the Trifield EM100 to assess the actual, measureable efficacy of power conditioners, power cables or grounding box devices? https://www.trifield.com/product/em100/ Just to be clear, I'm not asking for subjective...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Tom

 

[Amir]

I don't get the need for the star ground. What is it doing. Your making a parallel path on the negative of the circuit between the 2 devices. The chassis is already bonded through the shield of the cable. Although with the star, you are avoiding and extra resistor with bypass cap built into the shield of the cable. And all of that is tied to the negative of the circuit through a resistor on each component. So what does the star do.

Do you offer clients inexpensive cables. Like $400 cables that are configured properly with with bypass cap and resistor built in first, before you sell them a cable for thousands? If you do, does the expensive cable sound better. Atmasphere seems to say it should not have any voice at all. Either of them. Expensive or inexpensive. If you follow approved communications standards. Which the link Amir attached is advocating for. And as I see it, is accurate. That's how I would wire a studio. And for the most part, a home.

In Class II appliances the shield of ac cable does not connect chassis to earth. As you know the class ii appliance have two pin ac inputs (just line and neutral) not three pin.

I recommend my clients to have benchmark media cables but the subject of increasing signal to noise ratio is another subject and not related to cable sound quality.