Ron’s New System

[orfeo_monteverdi]

The Incito S is mostly transformers. It is very heavy for its size.

So is the Incito (Prestige Series, embedded PS, €10800): 33 Kg / 73 lbs.
(but its wooden crate is much smaller )

l like density and weight too. Its hard to find it with articulate, natural, true to voices and instruments.
[...]
Hopefully the A C gets you both.

It is exactly that synthesis that I no longer expected, that I instantly got from the Incito (Prestige Series, embedded PS) when I heard it at home.

Compared to my YBA 1 preamplifier (with separate PS), the Incito even delivered slightly better transparency. But first of all, it delivered more density and more true-to-life timbres and colors, evenly spread on the whole range, a bit like a scientifically restored Quattrocento fresco, along with an even more exquisitely refined treble (though YBA gears are very good at that too), more dynamics and deeper, wider and as accurate sound-stage image.
(Attending countless live, un-amplified acoustic concerts - 46 last season alone -, in various venues, made me sensitive to tone, dynamics, transparency and rhythm. By contrast, I admit I have become less obsessive with image accuracy, TBH.)

Technically, given their specific circuit topology, both Incito and Incito S can face a 250 Ohms load downwards (two hundred fifty Ohms).


Regarding the cause of the "edginess" previously endured:

While higher gain in the preamp doesn't electrically change the output of the amplifier (it only increases the input voltage to the amplifier) I suspect there must be some way in which the Italians are now better impedance matched to the preamp or experiencing less stress.

Apologies but I haven't read this very long thread comprehensively. Nevertheless, I have a vague memory: aren't your Italian monoblocks rather low gain (or at least, not-so-high-gain) ?
If so, isn't the present relieve regarding that past edginess simply due to the fact that, IIUC, your system now "complies" better to what Aries Cerat promotes: a better overall balance of the gain throughout the whole system, that is, in practice, to "move" more gain upwards (so, high-gain sources and preamplifiers, preferably), and lower the gain of downwards power amplifiers; in order to endow the system with a sepulchral silence.
In this hypothesis, deviation from that "overall gain balance" advised by AC (deviation= your previous setup, with too-low-gain preamps) would have generate enough distortion (not easily identified as such though), subjectively perceived as "edginess" ?
(I am aware that, technically, this argumentation is rather vague and shallow)

 

[Kingrex]

lol … I see that Aries Cerat derangement syndrome is alive and well within WBF since I last looked in … It appears that some individuals are transparently desperate to attribute the sonic evolution of this system to the speaker crossover alone … perhaps the OP should conduct a single component change evaluation in order to satisfy the desperation of these individuals !

I changed a resistor in my crossover and its a very audible sonic impact. Crossovers are a huge influence on the sound. if Ron changed a crossover as well as a preamp, he has no idea what either are doing.
I have changed preamps too. That is also a massive sonic change.

 

[treitz3]

One thing at a time....

Tom

 

[Ron Resnick]

A cheap active crossover will sound like you described…

There's no active crossover in the system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,
Yes, thanks.

I don't know. I've never heard her voice live, in-person unamplified.

I don't know of a single recording of hers that I would not consider to be any better than moderately poor recording quality. "Landslide" is at least closely mic'ed and not overproduced with a bunch instruments.

 

[the sound of Tao]

What sonic attribute does "angularity" describe? (I like conceptual terms, but I don't understand what you mean.)

I am imagining edgy, sharp, maybe PRAT. And flow then being relaxed.

The worst combo would be tweeter edgy, and woofer or subwoofer wallowing.
But I think some “dynamic attack” (and lack of compression), could be leaning towards angular? And maybe without the negative connotations.

I won’t to go too far into this because I think as a topic does really does deserve its own thread and will follow through at some point.

If you were to see flow in terms of smoothness, simple rhythms that unfold and resolve in reliable ways, releasing tensions, ease and gentle decays…music that creates a sense of repose

angularity is its pole opposite with complex musical lines that are sharp, surprising, jagged dissonant, a musical approach becoming increasingly popular in the 20th century.

In classical music flow will appear perhaps as a reflective gentle largo, adagio or andante movements…

In angular movements melodies leap around and can help induce chaos and are intense counterpoints to a movement of flow.

In jazz flow may appear in a ballad whereas there is freewheeling jazz that has the dissonant intensity and rhythmic complexity… both flow and angularity appears in alternative music such as rock, punk and prog and electronica…

A system to render music as intended by the performer needs to able to do both equally well I’d suggest.

 

[Ron Resnick]

aren't your Italian monoblocks rather low gain (or at least, not-so-high-gain) ?

No, the Italians are normal gain.

If so, isn't the present relieve regarding that past edginess simply due to the fact that, IIUC, your system now "complies" better to what Aries Cerat promotes: a better overall balance of the gain throughout the whole system, that is, in practice, to "move" more gain upwards (so, high-gain sources and preamplifiers, preferably), and lower the gain of downwards power amplifiers; in order to endow the system with a sepulchral silence.
In this hypothesis, deviation from that "overall gain balance" advised by AC (deviation= your previous setup, with too-low-gain preamps) would have generate enough distortion (not easily identified as such though), subjectively perceived as "edginess" ?
(I am aware that, technically, this argumentation is rather vague and shallow)

Yeah, thank you for trying, but this is not the way things work.

More gain in the preamplifier doesn't change the output of the amplifier.

The Aries Cerat preferred distribution of gain throughout the electronics chain doesn't apply here because only one of the components is Aries Cerat. And the Incito S at 19dB is producing a typical amount of preamplifier gain.

A low gain preamp doesn't generate an extra amount of distortion.

 

[Holmz]

No, the Italians are normal gain.


Yeah, thank you for trying, but this is not the way things work.

More gain in the preamplifier doesn't change the output of the amplifier.

Ok what does change the volume then?

Do many produce any real gain?
And ho do the passive pre-amps work using this “logic”.

The Aries Cerat preferred distribution of gain throughout the electronics chain doesn't apply here because only one of the components is Aries Cerat. And the Incito S at 19dB is producing a typical amount of preamplifier gain.

A low gain preamp doesn't generate an extra amount of distortion.

Does a high gain preamp generate extra distortion?

 

[Ron Resnick]

angularity is its pole opposite with complex musical lines that are sharp, surprising, jagged dissonant, a musical approach becoming increasingly popular in the 20th century.


In angular movements melodies leap around and can help induce chaos and are intense counterpoints to a movement of flow.

Shostakovich?

 

[the sound of Tao]

I took Tao as saying we all have a flavor we like, seek it for out own pleasure and tell everyone why we like it.

That is the way I do see it… I’m fine with others feeling that their way is the only way… but it’s not where I come from. 10 years ago I was completely into panels as well but have moved into something that fits me better now, we are all works in development.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Shostakovich?

Very much so… look to the post modernists, so far removed from the Romantic and Classical era in spirit but also context.

 

[morricab]

There's no active crossover in the system.

Oh, misunderstood…the cheap thing you replaced with Marchand was also passive?

 

[morricab]

Ok what does change the volume then?

Do many produce any real gain?
And ho do the passive pre-amps work using this “logic”.


Does a high gain preamp generate extra distortion?

You need less input signal to get the same SPL out of your speakers. The amps gain is fixed and it is only responding to what the preamp signal level output is. The gain of the active tube stage in the Incito is fixed. The resistor ladder volume control comes before the tube stage and attenuates the incoming signal from the source. The gain adjustment of Incito is performed by changing the windings on the output transformers.
Passive preamps work only by attenuation of the output signal from the source before feeding it into the input of the amplifier. This can be done resistively or it can be done by switching windings on a multi-tap transformer or autoformer.

Most active preamps work as a combination of attenuation followed by active gain. Only a very few have active gain adjustment where the gain of the active stage itself is adjusted rather than attenuation of the incoming signal. There are a few preamps that take the incoming signal directly into the active gain stage and then attenuate the output before sending it to the amp but this can be very problematic with overload if the output of the source is really high.

In the case of Incito, given the active stage is constant the distortion in high or low gain should be nearly the same...only whatever differences in distortion from the different amounts of transformer winding would possibly make them slightly different in that way.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Advantage: When the tube is powerful enough, you can save yourself the headphone amplifier; transformer coupling can drive with the right winding output. If you have headphones

 

[Ron Resnick]

Very much so

I never liked that guy's stuff! It sounds like an annoying, headache-y mess to me!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Oh, misunderstood…the cheap thing you replaced with Marchand was also passive?

yes

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

yes

XM-46 line lvl filters?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I never liked that guy's stuff! It always sounds like an annoying, headache-y mess to me!

there was a time when i felt the same. but now i can, and do, do an occasional all-day Shostakovich session. love his quartets too. but also love the Bartok quartets which are even more hair shirt.

not pooh pooing your perspective. the pace and need for expanding musical horizons is purely personal. for me it's simply enjoying the exploration and corners of my headspace that new music might tap into. takes me to different levels of feelings. did i get bored with the more familiar melodic pieces? hard to say. not the word i would use.

last night i had a friend and WBF member over and he wanted me to play classical music. we started off with some digital, a Munch Ravel recording from 1955. then we did two war horses on vinyl; the Reiner Shahrazad on 45 and the Reiner 'Pictures' on 45, and then i asked him if he wanted to try something more avant-garde, and we talked about what that might mean. i said hair-shirt....angry.....atonal. where maybe at first it's non musical, but then all of a sudden you connect in some mysterious way with another level of your perceptions and melt into it. but maybe an acquired taste. he was game. so i played a Dutilleux Cello Concerto by Rostropovitch on EMI. we played 5 minutes and then i asked him if he wanted more. he said that was enough. he was not yet ready to hear that but he did understand what i had meant. lastly i played a tape of the Reiner 'Pictures' i had not played in 15 years which he loved.

i see it as a gift that where i've been in my musical tastes does not hold me back from where i might go and i can get past myself. opens up lots of places to visit.

the Dutilleux Concerto is a great recording with grain-less-ness, flow and angularity. i would call it rich in dense tonality but not overly liquid. explosive. nothing to filter the energy or wonder of the piece.

 

[bonzo75]

I never liked that guy's (Shostakovich’s) stuff! It sounds like an annoying, headache-y mess to me!

It’s very different from fields of gold

https://youtu.be/l6Qg7qcPmDA?si=Mh54DRJxXkgQ_xsA

https://youtu.be/-mvIeuU92Qg?si=8uhe5CTD1jUyLqau

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

there was a time when i felt the same. but now i can, and do, do an occasional all-day Shostakovich session. love his quartets too. but also love the Bartok quartets which are even more hair shirt.

not pooh pooing your perspective. the pace and need for expanding musical horizons is purely personal. for me it's simply enjoying the exploration and corners of my headspace that new music might tap into. takes me to different levels of feelings. did i get bored with the more familiar melodic pieces? hard to say. not the word i would use.

last night i had a friend and WBF member over and he wanted me to play classical music. we started off with some digital, a Munch Ravel recording from 1955. then we did two war horses on vinyl; the Reiner Shahrazad on 45 and the Reiner 'Pictures' on 45, and then i asked him if he wanted to try something more avant-garde, and we talked about what that might mean. i said hair-shirt....angry.....atonal. where maybe at first it's non musical, but then all of a sudden you connect in some mysterious way with another level of your perceptions and melt into it. but maybe an acquired taste. he was game. so i played a Dutilleux Cello Concerto by Rostropovitch on EMI. we played 5 minutes and then i asked him if he wanted more. he said that was enough. he was not yet ready to hear that but he did understand what i had meant. lastly i played a tape of the Reiner 'Pictures' i had not played in 15 years which he loved.

i see it as a gift that where i've been in my musical tastes does not hold me back from where i might go and i can get past myself. opens up lots of places to visit.

the Dutilleux Concerto is a great recording with grain-less-ness, flow and angularity. i would call it rich in dense tonality but not overly liquid. explosive. nothing to filter the energy or wonder of the piece.

Try Ionization by Varese....