Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[Iamrael]

But to try and answer your question, the only way to know is to not be afraid to speak up and ask.
We can’t subpoena someone and put them under oath (yet) in these circumstances and unfortunately we have no civil rights/laws other than the TOS, which can be interpreted in any way the moderators choose without recourse.
Human nature dictates that if someone is accused of doing something that is wrong they will usually speak up and defend themselves more aggressively than just saying “there’s no evidence”, or even worse remain silent.
But they need to be called out first.
Kind of a catch 22.

 

[Iamrael]

that is not the problem. The problem is you receiving the benefit and not disclosing it when you are promoting the item.

I am not a fan of the review process as it is exists but this is a different subject.

Agreed 100%. It’s always been part of legit business.
The conundrum is if you are an influencer and you’re transparent than (in most cases) you can no longer be as an effective influencer.

 

[fbhifi]

I think this thread was likely started due to the recent “over the top” threads started by alleged affiliates benefiting from relationships with the people/products they’re promoting.
Yet, to my knowledge none these alleged participants have bothered to make any comments in this or related threads.
What does this silence mean?
Is it unreasonable to assume the worst of no one is willing to acknowledge or defend?Are the manufacturers obligated to speak up and inform us if any accommodations were provided?
Lastly, what impression does this leave wrt any validity when neither are compelled to comment or perhaps address allegations?
Are you at all insulted?
Maybe if ignored it will go away???

Its good to be king.

 

[JiminGa]

Think in terms of the relation of the added profits made by a manufacturer, retailer, etc. gained from what a “reviewer” writes and the value of the accommodations given rather than the relationship between what his salary is.and the accommodation.
If a manufacturer gives me a $50,000.00 retail component for his/her cost ($15000.00) and I influence 2 people to buy that product by saying how amazing it is than we’re all happy.
Often the price paid by the influencer for a given item is arbitrary only in order to maintain legality.

Yes. I think you are not understanding my point. Both reviewers and influencers increase profits for manufacturers. Both receive remuneration. Both are "happy". The problem is that impressionable consumers may not be. It's easy to simply not read official reviews. How do you avoid influencers if you don't know they are influencers? My point was that most reviewers get a few hundred dollars per review with a very few well known reviewers having six figure salaries. In theory, as an example, an influencer of say a 250k speaker can "make" 125k. I'm not comparing them. Just pointing that out. I have no interest in the relationship between a reviewers salary and their accommodation.

 

[Iamrael]

BTW I am well aware that these points are all common knowledge around here but I think we need to be reminded.

 

[PeterA]

I was influenced by Bonzo to try more stuff. I was also influenced by reading the system visit threads to DDK's place and his wonderful subforum on the "Beyond" turntables. I have also been influenced not to by stuff by visiting people's systems, shows, reviews, dealerships and listening. I think we should all proceed to do our own research with caution and use our own best judgement. IMO, private deals and arrangements between private businesses and their marketers and reviewers and dealers and distributors are not really anyone's business, as long as there are no laws being broken. Those are private transactions entered into voluntarily by both consenting parties. Disclosure is fine, and we can make up our own minds as to how that disclosure affects our decisions.

 

[Iamrael]

Yes. I think you are not understanding my point. Both reviewers and influencers increase profits for manufacturers. Both receive remuneration. Both are "happy". The problem is that impressionable consumers may not be. It's easy to simply not read official reviews. How do you avoid influencers if you don't know they are influencers? My point was that most reviewers get a few hundred dollars per review with a very few well known reviewers having six figure salaries. In theory, as an example, an influencer of say a 250k speaker can "make" 125k. I'm not comparing them. Just pointing that out. I have no interest in the relationship between a reviewers salary and their accommodation.

A buyer can be happy or unhappy regardless of what motivated the purchase.
Caveat emptor.

 

[microstrip]

No, sometimes things are objectively best. For example, the James Webb Space Telescope is objectively the most powerful telescope there is. The Large Hadron Collider is the most powerful particle collider out there. No one disputes these facts. In that sense, you can call them objectively best.

I think you are missing an important point. As soon as you needed to say "in that sense" they are not the "best".

As sorry, powerful can have different meanings according the area of study of physics people want to carry.

In contrast, in high-end audio, like in many human endeavors which are guided by subjective perceptions, priorities and preferences, anything "best" can only be such in a subjective manner.

Again, somethings can be objectively best. Preferences can be objectively studied, although they can't be reduced to objective facts.

And regardless how much knowledge and experience someone has accumulated,, that person's opinion will always remain subjective. More informed perhaps, but still subjective.

IMO we would need statistics to address this point.

Again IMO we are addressing mostly semantics. For me the more interesting perspective on the objective side of the hobby is how it correlates with the perceptual side of the hobby - and surely understanding why they many times seem to disagree.

BTW, when someone tells me that just changing interconnect cables objectively increased level by 4 dB it triggers my attention ...

 

[JiminGa]

A buyer can be happy or unhappy regardless of what motivated the purchase.
Caveat emptor.

Oh my gosh of course! Yes buyer beware. I know you know what I'm saying here. If you don't wish to comment that's fine. Its not life or death.

 

[JiminGa]

I was influenced by Bonzo to try more stuff. I was also influenced by reading the system visit threads to DDK's place and his wonderful subforum on the "Beyond" turntables. I have also been influenced not to by stuff by visiting people's systems, shows, reviews, dealerships and listening. I think we should all proceed to do our own research with caution and use our own best judgement. IMO, private deals and arrangements between private businesses and their marketers and reviewers and dealers and distributors are not really anyone's business, as long as there are no laws being broken. Those are private transactions entered into voluntarily by both consenting parties. Disclosure is fine, and we can make up our own minds as to how that disclosure affects our decisions.

No one is suggesting any laws are being broken here. knowledge and experience influences each of us. Yes we all need to exercise our best judgement. I just personally would like to know if you've been compensated in some fashion for your advice to me. We cannot pretend that we are not all subject to the laws of our human nature. Again, this is not life or death. I'm not that passionate about this but it is a thought experiment worth having.

 

[Elliot G.]

IMO, private deals and arrangements between private businesses and their marketers and reviewers and dealers and distributors are not really anyone's business, as long as there are no laws being broken.

so to be clear if a reviewer for example got paid for an opinion, in some manner that was not disclosed, then you are ok with that person touting a product? It isn't illegal but is it right?
you are ok with very expensive loans with no return date? you don't feel that influence is being exerted?
Someone who is a dealer like DDK didn't hide that fact, your friends are your friends and you know where they come from but people in positions of authority who are neither you feel its ok for them to get compensated and then give their compensated opinion without disclosure and you are ok with this?

 

[Iamrael]

This doesn’t hit the nail on the head but is close….

When actor portrayal disclaimers are necessary
Disclaimers are used when an advertisement includes a testimonial or demonstration that appears to be from a real person but is actually a performance by an actor.

• Implied authenticity: Advertisers want consumers to relate to the people in their ads. When an actor is used in a "slice of life" commercial, the goal is often for the viewer to believe the person is a genuine, everyday user of the product. The disclaimer clarifies that this scenario is a re-creation.
• Depicting professionals: If an ad features someone dressed as a doctor, dentist, or other expert, the "actor portrayal" disclosure is critical. Without it, the ad could be seen as misrepresenting that the product has been professionally endorsed when it has not.
• Testimonials and reviews: If a commercial uses a paid actor to provide a testimonial, it must be disclosed. This is also critical for testimonials collected from real people. The FTC forbids companies from incentivizing or misrepresenting reviews and testimonials.

 

[Kbh57]

Maybe I’m missing something, but this seems easy to me. If someone is communicating a tout of a product and the vendor of that product is in anyway providing them consideration to do so the purpose is obviously to influence consumer behavior. If the consumers do not know that the tout resulted from a bargained for exchange of consideration, there is an element of deception. So fair play demands full disclosure. No terms of service are going to necessarily stop this, it’s just a matter of the integrity of the people involved. The price of a human soul seems pretty cheap these days, but hopefully most people here would do the right thing.

 

[Iamrael]

Hopefully, but sadly enough….the “High end” hobby has become a haven for deceit due to illusive claims and expectations.IMO

 

[andromedaaudio]

MMM more money matters

 

[andromedaaudio]

Hopefully, but sadly enough….the “High end” hobby has become a haven for deceit due to illusive claims and expectations.IMO

Lol it has been like that since i can remember.

Every year 5 other references are born

 

[Elliot G.]

Hopefully, but sadly enough….the “High end” hobby has become a haven for deceit due to illusive claims and expectations.IMO

i dont go that far but the real real is not easy to find and so even the good ones get tainted by the rest.
I still adore music and that part of this I still have passion for and love. That is what I attempt to do however I know that it isn't the goal of everyone.

 

[pk_LA]

The topic was raised. Opinions were shared. The moderator gave very direct answers.

I feel like this thread is becoming a circular discussion - it just keeps covering the same ground with the same basic responses. Over and over again.

At some point it becomes merely grousing and merits a new thread. Maybe title it, "Venting, complaining and provocative conspiracy theories!"

 

[Iamrael]

Otoh, this is an issue that is plaguing the hobby and imo can’t be ignored if the industry is to continue to exist on this level.
Maybe for the best?

 

[Elliot G.]

The topic was raised. Opinions were shared. The moderator gave very direct answers.

I feel like this thread is becoming a circular discussion - it just keeps covering the same ground with the same basic responses. Over and over again.

At some point it becomes merely grousing and merits a new thread. Maybe title it, "Venting, complaining and provocative conspiracy theories!"

LOL grousing sounds like a weekend escape in the country chasing flying creatures. Not for me I only go after specific "birdies"