How do you know when you are done?

[mtemur]

I found this fascinating comment from former member DDK made ten years ago in 2015 quite interesting given our recent discussion about the vinyl revival. Here addressing the hardware side:



“(Edit) You shouldn't forget that by 2002 all the high end turntable manufacturers including Micro Seiki were gone, there was no market or incentive for anyone else to jump in back then. We're lucky to have this unexpected revival at this point in time, we owe it to digital's failure to deliver the "Perfect Sound Forever" promise !”

We’d much rather hear your own thoughts instead.

By the way, the quoted comment doesn’t really offer any insight. Vinyl’s resurgence isn’t because digital “failed” — digital is thriving. Vinyl came back because it offers old music in its authentic, original form and format. I started buying records in 1995 and never stopped, nor have I sold any of my collection.

If sound quality had been the only factor, digital never would have taken over in the ’80s — it (digital) sounded poorer back then, incomparable to todays digital.

 

[wil]

Depends on what you read and your attitude.

Some of the most enjoyable reading is found in the many threads here, going back 10 years:

David Karmeli Discusses 5 Reference Turntables Forum

With the resurgence of vinyl and turntables as a thriving part of the audiophile community it is the goal of WBF to bring fresh ideas to the forum. Most of us know David Karmeli (ddk) from internet audio forums as his name has become almost legendary in analog. There is no doubt that David...

www.whatsbestforum.com

There is a friendliness and comraderie that is lacking in many of the threads and posts of recent.

The introduction of the social credit system brought more contention.

Does anyone pay any attention at all to this social credit system? I’ve never even looked at it.

 

[Doc76]

Because the best does not exist as an absolute entity sin stereo sound. There is an individual best, that changes according to individual conditions along time. IMO some people take the name of this forum too seriously.

Respectfully, we are speaking of individual bests, as the name of the thread is “How do you know when you are done?” If you know you are done, then your system isn’t going to change, and you’re just sitting back enjoying the music. How sweet it is!

Of course, many just listen to their system and not to their music. They are like ships on the sea bounced from one wave to the next, or blown by the wind of one commentator or forum post to the next. Will these ever be done?

Sorry, I do not debate on Google meanings. A lost of time. Google is not audiophile.

Google - a non-audiophile - knows what “natural sound” means. Just because the phrase “natural sound” upsets you, doesn’t change its truthful meaning. Truth is truth no matter how it may make you feel.

Sorry, a perfect example of meaningless sensationalist gossip. You don't address the average number of streams for different classes of artists per year or the possible income of artists. Yes, I know some people quote the income per bit - surely much lower and even more misleading. BTW, one minute with ChatGPT can provide us a much better view on the subject.

Respectively, all the ones and zeroes, or the lack thereof, do matter. And the fact is unless you are famous you’re most likely having to hold down another job or working from your parent’s basement to make it in the streaming business. The royalties aren’t enough!

I really enjoy my digital system, and though it’s close to my vinyl, it still isn’t the same SQ. Though I’m satisfied with my digital, my vinyl is on a whole other level of enjoyment and refinement. While the differences are slight in some areas, you can still hear them. Though it may change in the future, my vinyl is presently superior to my digital.

However, I’m so satisfied with both my vinyl and digital, I no longer need to look for something ‘better’ (which is subjective anyway). Once your system sounds like live music, venue sound, etc. why look any further? There’s no need to change equipment any more!

 

[Al M.]

If sound quality had been the only factor, digital never would have taken over in the ’80s — it (digital) sounded poorer back then, incomparable to todays digital.

If it came to sound quality, digital never would have taken over in the ’80s -- among audiophiles that is.

Digital did take over in the 80s among the general public because of sound quality.

On non-audiophile systems, where you did not hear the digital gremlins and where vinyl was just so-so, digital indeed was better. I had a number of friends, acquaintances and colleagues that clearly were convinced of the sonic superiority of digital at the time, no questions asked, and so was I until I got into audiophilia and was not.

 

[PeterA]

We’d much rather hear your own thoughts instead.

By the way, the quoted comment doesn’t really offer any insight. Vinyl’s resurgence isn’t because digital “failed” — digital is thriving. Vinyl came back because it offers old music in its authentic, original form and format. I started buying records in 1995 and never stopped, nor have I sold any of my collection.

If sound quality had been the only factor, digital never would have taken over in the ’80s — it (digital) sounded poorer back then, incomparable to todays digital.

I do not have the knowledge or the experience of someone like David Karmeli, but you want to read my thoughts, so here they are:

I would not describe anything as a resurgence or revival. Vinyl was and still is. Some of the older of us seem to have rediscovered their love for the format. Some never lost it. Some of the younger of us seem to be buying newer vinyl and enjoying the format for their own reasons. Those who like vinyl, older and younger, keep buying and collecting vinyl. This is a good thing for the hobby.

What I do find interesting is that turntables, tonearms, cartridges, and phono stages are still being made, and vinyl is still being made. There is enough interest in the format to keep it alive. And there is plenty of old vinyl to be discovered and collected, plus the new stuff. It seems alive, if not well. In some rare cases, I think a few turntables, tonearms, cartridges and phono stages are even getting better, but that is a different discussion. And there are different quality levels for new vinyl too.

The interesting perspective from DDK back in 2015, and why I quoted him, is the observation that the major turntable manufacturers were going out of business in the 90s. I raised the exception of SME with their Model 30, a serious effort at the time. There were some others too. This happened as digital was becoming mainstream. I think we all know some of the history. And then, and then, turntables were being newly designed and made again and we continue to see it today. Contrast that to wooden tennis racquets and wooden sailboats. There is something alluring about playing vinyl records at home beyond mere nostalgia. It is not elite. It need not be expensive. It is about the quality of the experience and values, and the tangible that some few of us actually prefer. Vinyl and digital can and do coexist. Each has advantages and disadvantages, and each of us makes his choices. Most can enjoy both. I listen to digital at friends' houses and in my truck and on YouTube streaming, just not in my listening room.

 

[bonzo75]

That is simply false..

No, it is simply micro

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Depends on what you read and your attitude.
Some of the most enjoyable reading is found in the many threads here, going back 10 years:

David Karmeli Discusses 5 Reference Turntables Forum

With the resurgence of vinyl and turntables as a thriving part of the audiophile community it is the goal of WBF to bring fresh ideas to the forum. Most of us know David Karmeli (ddk) from internet audio forums as his name has become almost legendary in analog. There is no doubt that David...

www.whatsbestforum.com

There is a friendliness and comradery that is lacking in many of the threads and posts of recent.

Turntable, tonearm, and cartridge threads have always been pretty well behaved. that gear does not illicit the polarization of digital, amplifiers and speakers......where everyone is an expert. just ask them.

10 years ago things were quite different in terms of WBF forum forces at play today. (ASR) Amir had just left and much of the acrimony had left with him. Ron was just arriving. Bonzo had not yet really discovered horns and SET's and Zero Distortion was not yet a thing. Peter still loved his Pass Labs and Magico's and Sublime Sound. No Taiko or significant Lampizator. ddk had not yet marketed the AS-2000 and monetized his WBF profile. Certain silo's and tribes had not yet formed. the Trios Amigo's were on the prowl. happy, happy, happy.

you were not very active.

society is different today too, but i will stay away from that.

I completely agree Tim. I also enjoyed reading the threads where people described visiting other systems. Those seem to be far fewer now.

for sure; people had not been marginalized and attacked for having conventional systems.....yet. they enjoyed talking about them and were not defensive about them.

I found this fascinating comment from former member DDK made ten years ago in 2015 quite interesting given our recent discussion about the vinyl revival. Here addressing the hardware side:

“(Edit) You shouldn't forget that by 2002 all the high end turntable manufacturers including Micro Seiki were gone, there was no market or incentive for anyone else to jump in back then. We're lucky to have this unexpected revival at this point in time, we owe it to digital's failure to deliver the "Perfect Sound Forever" promise !”

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo had not yet really discovered horns and SET's

Actually, I had, tune audio anima, trios, were liked then, but had not discovered the joy of analog and the original LPs that followed it, which enhanced the sets horns simpler path thing, and showed me that transparency to recordings was more important than system induced colour, e.g. soundstage and its variance was on the record and did not have to beefed up by large panels and their rear wave (I did like restored Apogees equally then but those were with digital auditions). All other aspects were enhanced with recordings and insight into them became the prime source of realism.

 

[bonzo75]

Turntable, tonearm, and cartridge threads have always been pretty well behaved. that gear does not illicit the polarization of digital

Wonder who is missing on those threads to keep it civilized.

 

[bonzo75]

Turntable, tonearm, and cartridge threads

There are more good options on that front appreciated by many and people know that price alonge there does not matter, there is a lot to do with records and set up. Also, there are less philosophilcal differences. DD vs Belt vs Idler, for example, is a rare one and just not that polarized.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Actually, I had, tune audio anima, trios, were liked then......

maybe so. but your opinions had not yet gelled and become the freight train of hobby perspective that you now are.

 

[bonzo75]

10 years ago things were quite different in terms of WBF forum forces at play today.

And videos, of course

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Wonder who is missing on those threads to keep it civilized.

if i'm reading your post correctly you are saying digital threads are missing someone to keep them civilized? did i get that right?

if so, my opinion is that no one could can keep a lid on digital thread decorum and the strong feelings about it at every step. it's a free-for-all. too much commerce combined with so many perspectives.....and super extreme brand loyalty.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And videos, of course

those are not on my radar, but of course you are correct. it's one of the silos.

 

[bonzo75]

if i'm reading your post correctly you are saying digital threads are missing someone to keep them civilized? did i get that right?

No. Who from the digital tribe is missing on the analog ones, as I agree with your comment analog ones are more civilised

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No. Who from the digital tribe is missing on the analog ones, as I agree with your comment analog ones are more civilised

ok, i think i see where you are going here.

i think threads focused on analog gear do bypass some posters (not much traction) who like to contest perspectives back and forth as a hobby unto itself......all in good fun, of course. where is the opportunity to stir the pot talking about a turntable or tonearm? mostly interested members want to learn about that analog piece to see whether it might be for them. something to learn. not just an opportunity to go off on a tangent.

and i think tube rolling threads even for digital can be added to analog threads as calm learning spots.

 

[Atmasphere]

but simply for its limitation on the availability of new performances.

There's a lot of new LPs out there if you're into modern pop/alt/electronia, etc.

I would not describe anything as a resurgence or revival. Vinyl was and still is.

During the early mid 90s I had to resort to importing LPs to get releases I wanted. If you have an original import copy of Sarah McLachlan's Solace, Mike Oldfield's Songs of Distant Earth or the Dances With Wolves soundtrack from that time (and not the US reissues) its likely because I imported it. It was really hard to find new titles back then!

 

[microstrip]

That is simply false.

In assembling an analog front-end, thanks to the RIAA, one can choose whatever turntable, tonearm, cartridge and phonostage one prefers and play any LP.

It is simply true, but you are changing the subject by cutting the post , as you often do. I was addressing the recordings, not the system. The average audiophile can surely choose the gear, not the pressings. Please read the whole post before answering.

 

[microstrip]

Elitism? When just considering audiophiles, we can choose WADAX and the new dCS for streaming perfect sound. That is until next year when it will surely be more perfect.

I will be happy to debate with you if you address the arguments of the posts, not your limited views on digital luxury.

Vinyl lovers choose which pressings to collect. There is no “must” about it. And as we see from recent vinyl sales figures, it must not be the pressings of yesterday. For people using digital, there are different resolutions. Often not given choices. There are higher rez and lower rez which does not seem very egalitarian to me. And then there is whatever may come tomorrow.

It is not what was being addressed, but thanks for confirming my words.
BTW recent vinyl sales are mostly digital vinyl, as we addressed before.

 

[microstrip]

I think you mean vinyl vs. digital has a classist, not political, element to the debate but I disagree with both premises.

Surely classist. My reference to political was a joke on our TOS.

Come up to Toronto one weekend and I’ll take you to a record show. You’ll see that vinyl appeals to all walks of life. Collecting is a significant part of the vinyl attraction, but it doesn’t have to be expensive. I’d add that finding a music lover these days who only listens to vinyl is extremely rare.

I see you are missing the essential point of our discussion - we are addressing topics in general, not the "elitist" big town perspective. I would love to visit Canada, but surely would not spend time on record shows. ... You have much more attractive points to visit. Anyway I thing that digital vinyl sold in Toronto is similar to digital vinyl sold all over the world!