What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[microstrip]

I did read the papers, that’s why I mentioned AES and Klippel. They explicitly show that thermal compression is measurable and has been measured. That’s exactly my point: it’s not sorcery, it’s physics.

The cartoon was only humor to illustrate how some people dismiss obvious physical laws. My explanation wasn’t “ambiguous verbose,” it was simply stating Joule’s law applied to a voice coil: when current flows, it heats, resistance rises, current drops, output falls. That’s the mechanism behind compression.

So yes, we agree it’s a scientific matter that can be measured. The only difference is: I don’t downplay it as trivial, because the measurements show it happens even at moderate levels. That’s the discussion worth having.

Yes, the "mechanisms" you love to repeat are known since long - we did not have to wait for AES and Klippel to know about them, although you just parrot the usual sentence from the Klippel introduction.

No, the question is that you are not able to show measurements carried in realistic conditions that show that thermal compression is significant at typical audiophile sound levels in top box high-end speakers, although measuring them is nowadays very simple.

So your insinuations are unfounded - they are just an audiophile myth. If you have read the papers you have noticed they addressed PA levels, not domestic sound levels, or poor performance speaker units - they wanted to show the effect clearly.

Surely high-efficiency speakers in general can play at maximum levels louder than low efficiency speakers. But this is not relevant for 99% of the audiophiles, except in shows or when they want to impress friends.

BTW, if you care about thermal compression you should hate vinyl - the thermal compression in cutter heads is significant and curiously much more discussed.

 

[bonzo75]

Surely high-efficiency speakers in general can play at maximum levels louder than low efficiency speakers. But this is not relevant for 99% of the audiophiles, except in shows or when they want to impress friends.

If you think high efficiency speakers are used to play at Max level louder, then you have never auditioned a high efficiency speaker properly. It allows you to play the whole range from the lowest audible sound through to the max volume easier, allowing to hear the slightest shifts more easily. The best will allow you to hear the shift of the hand on the bow. If the multiple drivers are in sync, this will lead to you not adjusting the volume for the toughest to move driver only (causing the more sensitive driver to fatigue you).

 

[Kozak170]

Yes, the "mechanisms" you love to repeat are known since long - we did not have to wait for AES and Klippel to know about them, although you just parrot the usual sentence from the Klippel introduction.

No, the question is that you are not able to show measurements carried in realistic conditions that show that thermal compression is significant at typical audiophile sound levels in top box high-end speakers, although measuring them is nowadays very simple.

So your insinuations are unfounded - they are just an audiophile myth. If you have read the papers you have noticed they addressed PA levels, not domestic sound levels, or poor performance speaker units - they wanted to show the effect clearly.

Surely high-efficiency speakers in general can play at maximum levels louder than low efficiency speakers. But this is not relevant for 99% of the audiophiles, except in shows or when they want to impress friends.

BTW, if you care about thermal compression you should hate vinyl - the thermal compression in cutter heads is significant and curiously much more discussed.

You’re right, Joule’s law is not new. No one claimed it was. The value of AES and Klippel work is that they quantified the effect on loudspeakers with modern measurements. Even at domestic levels, independent tests have shown small but measurable compression, typically 1–2 dB, corresponding to tens of degrees of temperature rise in the coil. That may sound “trivial,” but subjectively it can reduce the sense of liveliness and dynamics, exactly what people notice when they compare low efficiency boxes to horns.

If you think this is all just a “myth,” then why do so many listeners report the difference as soon as they move from Magico-type boxes to Vitavox or other horns? That listening evidence is hard to dismiss.

And regarding vinyl: yes, cutter heads also suffer thermal compression. That only proves the effect is universal wherever voice coils and heating are involved. But bringing up vinyl doesn’t make the loudspeaker effect vanish.

 

[microstrip]

You’re right, Joule’s law is not new. No one claimed it was. The value of AES and Klippel work is that they quantified the effect on loudspeakers with modern measurements. Even at domestic levels, independent tests have shown small but measurable compression, typically 1–2 dB, corresponding to tens of degrees of temperature rise in the coil. That may sound “trivial,” but subjectively it can reduce the sense of liveliness and dynamics, exactly what people notice when they compare low efficiency boxes to horns.

Please provide links to these tests, we can comment on them. All I know about were carried with pink noise or similar, not with music signals - the standard tests.

If you think this is all just a “myth,” then why do so many listeners report the difference as soon as they move from Magico-type boxes to Vitavox or other horns? That listening evidence is hard to dismiss.

Horns sound different from box speakers, known since long. There are many known and accepted reasons why. The same way some people now say that a few horn speakers don't sound like "horns". Please note that I really like some horn speakers - I addressed it since long in WBF. But I can't understand why some horn lovers need the support of false myths to feed their love. This is an hobby of preference. I we want to support preference on science we must do it correctly with facts, not with fantasy.

And regarding vinyl: yes, cutter heads also suffer thermal compression. That only proves the effect is universal wherever voice coils and heating are involved. But bringing up vinyl doesn’t make the loudspeaker effect vanish.

No, it just shows that this effect does not kill dynamics as you say. Great mastering engineers of the past used this effect to enhance recordings.

 

[bonzo75]

The same way some people now say that a few horn speakers don't sound like "horns".

These are inexperienced people who just discovered some horns like trios don’t honk (iirc Jacob helium said that?) and in order to justify their change of speakers they put this as a justification, instead of simply saying they hadn’t investigated horns before

 

[WBF Team]

All, this thread has been cleaned up and some inappropriate posts have been removed. Please focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

The thread will now reopen.

 

[Ron Resnick]

All, this thread has been cleaned up and some inappropriate posts have been removed. Please focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

The thread will now reopen.

Thank you, Tom!

 

[sbnx]

TBH given a choice of any horn system I'd go with AG.

Why? Because generally they do scale and dynamics, sound exciting/are fast and generally have too much bass. Excellent for the sort of stuff I listen too. Also, they are good off axis.

That includes the likes of the Olympian and lots of other major brands, which for the most part I have heard many times.

AG uses active bass. If it is too loud simply turn it down. If it is too quiet, turn it up. A big advantage if AG is the bass can be tailored to your liking.

 

[PeterA]

It is nice to actually see an active discussion about horn speakers on WBF. Why do modern horns seem to need much more power than old vintage horns? I suspect much of what we hear from horns, modern or vintage has to do with the sound of the amplifier. Vintage JBLs for instance can be run with lower power amps, most tubes, while modern horns often have high powered tubes or even SS amplification. That surely affects the sound.

 

[Atmasphere]

It is nice to actually see an active discussion about horn speakers on WBF. Why do modern horns seem to need much more power than old vintage horns? I suspect much of what we hear from horns, modern or vintage has to do with the sound of the amplifier. Vintage JBLs for instance can be run with lower power amps, most tubes, while modern horns often have high powered tubes or even SS amplification. That surely affects the sound.

Of course! I run more power because I don't want the amplifier working hard. Its a good technique regardless of the kind of speaker used, if you want to get the most out of the amp. Amplifiers, IMO,IME should be loafing for a job, regardless of the material you throw at it, there should be a lot in common, as far as the amp is concerned, with sitting on a park bench.

If you make the amp work hard it will make more distortion. Our ears use harmonics to tell how things sound so more distortion is never good.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

My 8watt 300B cruises along driving 112 dB TAD 4003 in CD horn from 600 and up…..seldom uses more than 1W

 

[Lagonda]

My 8watt 300B cruises along driving 112 dB TAD 4003 in CD horn from 600 and up…..seldom uses more than 1W

And you use proper SS amplifiers for the bass and mid-bass !

 

[andromedaaudio]

And you use proper SS amplifiers for the bass and mid-bass !

Leif keeps using at least one SET in the system ,because he doesnt want to go all in solid state and get in trouble with Ked lol

 

[Lagonda]

Leif keeps using at least one SET in the system ,because he doesnt want to go all in solid state and get in trouble with Ked lol

He tried it, but prefers the tubes on the high-range. Leif tries everything, that is why i trust his judgment.

 

[PeterA]

Of course! I run more power because I don't want the amplifier working hard. Its a good technique regardless of the kind of speaker used, if you want to get the most out of the amp. Amplifiers, IMO,IME should be loafing for a job, regardless of the material you throw at it, there should be a lot in common, as far as the amp is concerned, with sitting on a park bench.

If you make the amp work hard it will make more distortion. Our ears use harmonics to tell how things sound so more distortion is never good.

I am using an 18 watt SET into my 105 dB/16 ohm corner horns, so there is that. I am not using a 2-3 watt SET. My point is that we see vintage horns with lower watt SETs and modern horns often with more powerful tube or SS amps. They seem to be much more difficult loads.

 

[Atmasphere]

I am using an 18 watt SET into my 105 dB/16 ohm corner horns, so there is that. I am not using a 2-3 watt SET. My point is that we see vintage horns with lower watt SETs and modern horns often with more powerful tube or SS amps. They seem to be much more difficult loads.

It depends on the speaker I imagine. My Classic Audio Loudspeakers are a very easy load except they are only 98dB so are unsuitable for lower powered SETs despite the 16 Ohm load, unless you're in a smaller room. But it is true that the crossovers in older horn designs tend to be simpler. Modern horns, if designed by a larger company like JBL, will be designed for amps that can behave as a Voltage source so despite their efficiency they, may not be suitable for SETs. The JBL Everest is an example.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

Well, well, well, look at this thread crawling back from the forum crypt like a dusty 100 Year old Cinema Horn, yearning for its moment in the spotlight! All the relentless tone-chasers, still wants to know: What’s the best horn loudspeaker in the world? As if there’s a single answer that won’t spark an audiophile cage match!
I'm still thinking about, how to give the correct answer. Will be back soon.
Best Regards Swen.

 

[Zero000]

AG uses active bass. If it is too loud simply turn it down. If it is too quiet, turn it up. A big advantage if AG is the bass can be tailored to your liking.

I know.

I'm just talking about typical Munich show setups for over a decade. Bass is always on the generous to mad side.

I like generous bass when it is fast, defined and controlled especially for reggae, electronica and rock.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...it's like different music altogether when it tight, thick and fast...and not that truck-lid-shakin hoop-d mud.

 

[PeterA]

It depends on the speaker I imagine. My Classic Audio Loudspeakers are a very easy load except they are only 98dB so are unsuitable for lower powered SETs despite the 16 Ohm load, unless you're in a smaller room. But it is true that the crossovers in older horn designs tend to be simpler. Modern horns, if designed by a larger company like JBL, will be designed for amps that can behave as a Voltage source so despite their efficiency they, may not be suitable for SETs. The JBL Everest is an example.

That is my point. Later JBLs need power. My speakers are more sensitive than yours and they are older. They don’t need 18 watts but I want them limping along as you say. It seems newer horns need more power.