Lukasz Has Done It Again

[Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus]

ON the subject of TUBE ROLLING for the last time here on this thread:
I am ambivalent on this subject and I will explain why.
On one hand - I want to give to my dear customers as much fun, joy and pleasure as possible. If your idea of fun and joy is swapping tubes - I can’t stop you from doing so - after all it is your DAC.


To this end I buy and find great rare tubes and test them - WITHIN the specified model group. With all parameters taken into account.


Then I post on my documents: you can try tubes x y or Z that I approved, and you can try tens and tens of different brands.


What it DOESN’T mean that you can try ANY glass bulb with 8 legs. Any tube that comes to your mind, and on top of that - to stick it into some adapter. This is the sure way to kill the DAC.


I especially dont appreciate that I am blamed for the damages and I am expected to ship, pay tax and duties, fix the damages, give new tubes, ship back and all this cost in excess of a 1000 Euro. This is not my idea of fun. With the extra weight of Aphrodite such round trip may cost much more.


Again: roll THE SAME type just different brand. DO NOT ROLL different type. Easy guideline.


Coming back to the Aphrodite - this product is very special and I wanted to do my best to maximise the sound quality. I bought 20 sets of 10 octals of KT88, EL34 and KT66 and I chose from the 20 sets my best favourite set. It took MONTHS of listening under different parameters and operating points. Then after choosing it, to make sure that EVERYBODY can enjoy this phenomenal sound - I bought the stock enough for 20 Aphrodites plus spares - 200 expensive pentodes. I stashed it so they never get sold elsewhere. Now I am ready to ship the Aphrodite with the best tubes money can buy new - and people already plan to throw these tubes away (prior to even listening the stock form) any use god knows what. Doesn't make me a happy boy.


I can not stop them from doing it but I am very very very far from advocating it. Very very very far. We just have a different idea of paradise.


This is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STORY than 10 years ago when we made for fun a comment that Atlantic2 is compared to Atlantic1 a paradise for tube rollers. Because Atlantic 1 was FIXED to one endemic tube 4P1L without alternatives. I relaxed this to give people some freedom to try EL34 or 6V6 or KT66 or KT88 from Marconi, GEC or RCA but Atlantic was a scooter compared to a V12 MacLaren which Aphrodite is. I have installed all kinds of protections against the damage resulting from wrong rolling but God knows what people will come up with . Human imagination is unlimited.

 

[Kingrex]

I can't wait for the spit and fighting over, is a $88k DAC better than a $300k DAC.
Personally, I would love to see the ship righted on the idea that more and more and more, extraordinary levels of money is needed to have the best of the best DAC.
$88K is still astronomical. But the numbers have gotten way out of control. I don't wish ill will on Wadax, MSB or DCS, but I would love to see their sales on pinnacle machines dry up if something a quarter the price can equal or better them.

 

[bonzo75]

I can't wait for the spit and fighting over, is a $88k DAC better than a $300k DAC.

Don’t think Lampi guys were fighting, many of us are way happy with golden gates

 

[Kingrex]

Don’t think Lampi guys were fighting, many of us are way happy with golden gates

No they weren't. But I think a lot of that was based in a fear that The Mob would laugh them.off thread if they even floated the idea a Lampizator DAC was in the same league as the other 3 I noted.

 

[Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus]

I can't wait for the spit and fighting over, is a $88k DAC better than a $300k DAC.
Personally, I would love to see the ship righted on the idea that more and more and more, extraordinary levels of money is needed to have the best of the best DAC.
$88K is still astronomical. But the numbers have gotten way out of control. I don't wish ill will on Wadax, MSB or DCS, but I would love to see their sales on pinnacle machines dry up if something a quarter the price can equal or better them.

I can admit that I don't know what Wadax or MSB are doing, not really interested. I dont care about their price or whatever. I couldnt care less.
My life pursuit is for the best sound, and I am happily following my own path. When I research - I find new paths, for example better transformers, better resistors, better circuits, better clocks. As I discover them - I implement them, and then I use excel to see how much it costs. And people DONT NEED to buy it, I build it anyway, it costs what it costs, and if someone loves it - I love to be able to sell. Things cost a lot these days, and good things cost even more. Energy cost, real estate cost, salaries and taxes cost, accounting too and heating the building. Great things cost much more again. I used to pay 2 dollars for 100 resistors - good enough for the amber DAC . But to make the worlds best - I am reaching for 50 dollar per one resistors and 200 dollar caps. Do I have an oil rig to cross-subsidize this "hobby"? Obviously not. So the product must pay for my cost of keeping the doors open. summing up - I am not greedy, and things cost whatever. I wish I could sell it for less but I can't. I am VERY good at math. And I am the Paganini of excel. At the same time I trickle down all possible inventions and we refresh all our lower DACs this year with better sound at the same price. So there is always a dac for 4, 6, 8, 10, 16, 18, 20, 25, 29, 50 k - plus the used refurbished ones for 40% off.

 

[Steve Williams]

I really believe this will prove to be Lukasz Magnum Opus and trickle down technology will occur in the other models. The Aphrodite was never meant to be anything other than an initial 20 unit production but Im betting with the demand so far, this willl be surpassed

As a point of clarification the MSRP is 88K Euros not 88K USD

And FWIW the H360 is a superb DAC and remains in production. The Aphrodite is NOT and upgrade to the H360 but a culmination of everything Lukasz has learned

Plus I take Lukasz comments about tube rolling seriously as there are anecdotal stories here on WBF where tubes and adapters have worked successfully in one Horizon only to take out the power supply in someone else's unit when the tube and adapter were sold. I do know that Lukasz has told me that whatever I was using in my H360 would work in the Aphrodite however I'm not putting in anything but the stock tubes until Lukasz and Fred arrive

For those interested still in coming, spots are filling up. I thought this would be a west coast attendee event but people are flying in from all over the USA. If interested reach out to me for hotel recommendations . John Wayne airport is still the best airport to fly into otherwise LAX, Long Beach and San Diego airports also work but further away. John Wayne airport is a 20 minute drive to my house

 

[bonzo75]

No they weren't. But I think a lot of that was based in a fear that The Mob would laugh them.off thread if they even floated the idea a Lampizator DAC was in the same league as the other 3 I noted.

There are quite a lot of us delighted with the GG, no reason to jump dacs, only move to analog

 

[Steve Williams]

There are quite a lot of us delighted with the GG, no reason to jump dacs, only move to analog

I cant disagree with that but DACs are getting so good nowadays that the magic threshold separating the two technologies is closing and I do believe at some point the bridge will be crossed. People say impossible but from what I heard in my H360 and what I heard yesterday in the video Lukasz released , the listener commented about the sound being organic, natural and vinyl like (all with the stock tubes). These are data points that cannot be ignored

 

[Chrisl]

Totally agree with Rex, but no surprise given my prior comment. It does seem though in your product releases recently to only focus on the high end, so I'm guessing that's where the profit margin is much higher.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I can't wait for the spit and fighting over, is a $88k DAC better than a $300k DAC.
Personally, I would love to see the ship righted on the idea that more and more and more, extraordinary levels of money is needed to have the best of the best DAC.
$88K is still astronomical. But the numbers have gotten way out of control. I don't wish ill will on Wadax, MSB or DCS, but I would love to see their sales on pinnacle machines dry up if something a quarter the price can equal or better them.

Don’t think Lampi guys were fighting, many of us are way happy with golden gates

There are quite a lot of us delighted with the GG, no reason to jump dacs, only move to analog

i think when you reach a certain level of tube dacs, where they respond well to tube rolling, this is a 90 degree turn from the solid state uber $300k dacs and so a different path. the two approaches are not really in competition. the tube dacs are more in competition with maybe the Taiko Olympus analog dac or it's future iterations. as those are more what is the actual competition. many tube dac owners might try those out as it's not that hard to do. but if you are in love with rolling tubes, then that is where you are. i loved my GG 1.5 and it was a nice way to go. but tube rolling was not for me.

I cant disagree with that but DACs are getting so good nowadays that the magic threshold separating the two technologies is closing and I do believe at some point the bridge will be crossed. People say impossible but from what I heard in my H360 and what I heard yesterday in the video Lukasz released, the listener commented about the sound being organic, natural and vinyl like (all with the stock tubes). These are data points that cannot be ignored

i think when we get into the better sounding pressings, or tapes, we still have a big gap. analog is moving forward too. and the actual physical media rules there.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

I am VERY good at math. And I am the Paganini of excel.

...this is my top contender for quote of the year! Too funny, Maestro Fikus. Thanks for the recent posts. A pleasure to follow along.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

I'm guessing that's where the profit margin is much higher.

...it's gotta be more fun. Especially vs. a cost-sensitive model, when prices keep changing and you can't predict what your BOM is costing you month-to-month.

 

[bonzo75]

The Mob would laugh them.off thread

No, many that own a Lampi don't have respect for the mob, mafia, or SWAT teams. That is for movies and TV shows, Lampi is for music.

 

[Kingrex]

Musicality is musicality. I don't care if it comes from a tube or a solid state circuit. I don't see any reason a tube DAC couldn't be perceived as more natural, organic and pleasant to listen to than a $300k solid state DAC package.
I do believe they are competitive packages. It would only take 1 serious reviewer to publish they prefer the Aphrodite and a lot of the $$$ based ego might be put aside in pursuit of better sound.
I myself wish I could afford a GG or better. I want better digital. But my house looks like this. Priorities.

 

[ctydwn]

I can admit that I don't know what Wadax or MSB are doing, not really interested. I dont care about their price or whatever. I couldnt care less.
My life pursuit is for the best sound, and I am happily following my own path. When I research - I find new paths, for example better transformers, better resistors, better circuits, better clocks. As I discover them - I implement them, and then I use excel to see how much it costs. And people DONT NEED to buy it, I build it anyway, it costs what it costs, and if someone loves it - I love to be able to sell. Things cost a lot these days, and good things cost even more. Energy cost, real estate cost, salaries and taxes cost, accounting too and heating the building. Great things cost much more again. I used to pay 2 dollars for 100 resistors - good enough for the amber DAC . But to make the worlds best - I am reaching for 50 dollar per one resistors and 200 dollar caps. Do I have an oil rig to cross-subsidize this "hobby"? Obviously not. So the product must pay for my cost of keeping the doors open. summing up - I am not greedy, and things cost whatever. I wish I could sell it for less but I can't. I am VERY good at math. And I am the Paganini of excel. At the same time I trickle down all possible inventions and we refresh all our lower DACs this year with better sound at the same price. So there is always a dac for 4, 6, 8, 10, 16, 18, 20, 25, 29, 50 k - plus the used refurbished ones for 40% off.

May not be for everyone, but this infectious energy from this thread alone and led by the designer/founder, company employee experts, consummate dealers, familial owner network, and overall ethic for always putting their customers first continues to deliver. Without fail Lukasz, Fred and his team are always taking care to ensure optimal uninterrupted musical enjoyment. I cannot wait for this next chapter and fabled queen of DACs here (and will stick with curated tube set!)

 

[ctydwn]

i think when you reach a certain level of tube dacs, where they respond well to tube rolling, this is a 90 degree turn from the solid state uber $300k dacs and so a different path. the two approaches are not really in competition. the tube dacs are more in competition with maybe the Taiko Olympus analog dac or it's future iterations. as those are more what is the actual competition. many tube dac owners might try those out as it's not that hard to do. but if you are in love with rolling tubes, then that is where you are. i loved my GG 1.5 and it was a nice way to go. but tube rolling was not for me.

.

This sounds like a slap in the face to flagship tube DACs. “the tube dacs are more in competition with Taiko Olympus analog dac”? frankly a slight to Taiko as well.
Noone has definitively said that olympus analog dac outperforms a $40k dac let alone a $100k Lampizator Aphrodite DAC. Taiko’s dac card weighs 2 pounds (all the xdmi tech aside). And yet you say with full confidence that Aphrodite DAC (at 145 pounds) cannot possibly compete with Wadax or DCS ss offerings? Have you compared Aphrodite to your wadax?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This sounds like a slap in the face to flagship tube DACs. “the tube dacs are more in competition with Taiko Olympus analog dac”?
Noone has definitively said that olympus analog dac outperforms a $40k dac let alone a $100k Lampizator Aphrodite DAC. And yet you say with full confidence that Aphrodite DAC cannot possibly compete with Wadax or DCS ss offerings?

i have no idea. and i'm not dissing tubed dacs. i only have my own tube dac experience and hearing the various Lampi dacs in systems and at shows. not heard the H360 yet.

they may better than ultra uber SS dacs, but i expect that buyers for tube rolling dacs, and the super uber SS dacs are different people. and that is what i am saying. when we get head to head then we will have additional data points. but we don't see where the customer for the super uber SS dacs were also seriously considering a tube rolling dac.

years ago i did my own head to head at the level i was at and went from there on my own path. Rex brought up the subject here, i'm one of the few owners of that class of dac and have an opinion about the point Rex made, which i have shared. maybe other actual super uber SS dac owners see it different?

 

[Alrainbow]

Best to take some time to enjoy what have or buy new . New mostly exceeds old and lampi takes the massive time to test
Some call this research and development.
What most makers miss is practicality in usage . Lampi has always made this in production. Let the master of tube / digital products do his thing . Far as I have ever heard always a move up , and I have questioned him a few times and lost to his ideals .

i think when you reach a certain level of tube dacs, where they respond well to tube rolling, this is a 90 degree turn from the solid state uber $300k dacs and so a different path. the two approaches are not really in competition. the tube dacs are more in competition with maybe the Taiko Olympus analog dac or it's future iterations. as those are more what is the actual competition. many tube dac owners might try those out as it's not that hard to do. but if you are in love with rolling tubes, then that is where you are. i loved my GG 1.5 and it was a nice way to go. but tube rolling was not for me.


i think when we get into the better sounding pressings, or tapes, we still have a big gap. analog is moving forward too. and the actual physical media rules there.

I think you missed lampi ,s point he tries to keep things cheaper or more affordable.
Now where I do disagree is commenting on tubes not being at the level of SS in dacs as said . Correct me if I'm wrong in my comments to you I mean no offense .
How many world class systems use tubes ? Amps , preamps , tape head pre amps and phono preamps
How much mm money any given audio product is more about total in full
Development,production , marketing and now is shipping .
When lampi was of old it was the new maker , and now while lampi is a top tier maker of digital products lampi still does there best to keep a lid on cost
Lampi posts clearly says it .
End product is to be of sound and how we get there is a very different road for each of us .
there is no definitive path to top end sound but there is a significant price to be paid for being told this is the best until a new product same maker is now best yet again . While lampi keeps making strives for better , they don't claim past to be irrelevant.
Just my thoughts and I do like SS .

 

[bonzo75]

they may better than ultra uber SS dacs, but i expect that buyers for tube rolling dacs, and the super uber SS dacs are different people.

No different than those preferring low watt valve amps to monster SS amps or efficient speakers to inefficient ones, or analog to digital. The super uber adjective is just a synonym for very expensive, those who can will drive through the nuances to pick the quality components

 

[Kingrex]

i have no idea. and i'm not dissing tubed dacs. i only have my own tube dac experience and hearing the various Lampi dacs in systems and at shows. not heard the H360 yet.

they may better than ultra uber SS dacs, but i expect that buyers for tube rolling dacs, and the super uber SS dacs are different people. and that is what i am saying. when we get head to head then we will have additional data points. but we don't see where the customer for the super uber SS dacs were also seriously considering a tube rolling dac.

years ago i did my own head to head at the level i was at and went from there on my own path. Rex brought up the subject here, i'm one of the few owners of that class of dac and have an opinion about the point Rex made, which i have shared. maybe other actual super uber SS dac owners see it different?

What do you mean by a different type of person?