And he is using the small Living Voice speakers (British centric writer that he is) as a high sensitivity example that is easy to drive. While I like these speakers quite a lot and they respond well to modest powered SETs, they are STILL not the true representation of high sensitivity speakers (they are rated at 94dB, which is probably a generous rating). He mentions Kevin Scott, but not his Vox Olympians and kind of ignores the fact that KS strongly prefers SETs in all his demos.
What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???
- Thread starter caesar
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I enjoyed reading Roy's "Loudness Wars" think piece. I agree with much of what he has to say. If I were to summarize what I think his thesis is then it would be:
Loudspeaker sensitivity and ease of drive tend to point to a speaker's ability to reproduce engaging music. Sensitiveity specs for loudspeakers are poorly defined and misleading. Loudspeaker manufactuers are making poor design decisions. They are pounding the frequency response flat with an overly complicated crossover and trying to achieve too much bass extension for the cabinet size. By doing this they are trading off high(er) sensitivity and impedance (ease of drive).
Is this what you guys came away with?
Loudspeaker sensitivity and ease of drive tend to point to a speaker's ability to reproduce engaging music. Sensitiveity specs for loudspeakers are poorly defined and misleading. Loudspeaker manufactuers are making poor design decisions. They are pounding the frequency response flat with an overly complicated crossover and trying to achieve too much bass extension for the cabinet size. By doing this they are trading off high(er) sensitivity and impedance (ease of drive).
Is this what you guys came away with?
I agree with your general thesis about what loudspeaker manufacturers are doing. But I don’t really get that message from reading Roy Gregory although I suppose you could get that message if you stretch it a bit.
I like your phrase pounding the frequency response flat. I wonder if this approach started with the availability of inexpensive watts and the ever present desire to reduce distortion. I often ask myself if they even spend much time listening to the end result or simply look at test results and measurements.
The amplifier and speaker are a pair and this comes across in Gregory’s writing. As such, I would want a sensitive speaker just to open up more possibilities for amplifier choice.
It is very telling that the Wilson speakers are often impaired with large Dagostino amplifiers. If I went to shows or spent more time reading reviews, I would pay attention to how many different amplifiers are exhibited or tested with the given speaker. This is why I like it when members on forums share their equipment so you can perhaps see some unusual combinations and read what the owner has to say about it.
I don't think he is saying that sensitivity and ease of drive point to a speaker's ability to make engaging music. In fact he seems to be suggesting that it doesn't really matter, just that big powerful SS amps are very expensive if you want to go the less lively speaker route. He implies that this is a valid road to the same outcome as a truly high sensitivity speaker + small tube amp; however, physics says they are not equivalent...Roy probably doesn't have much education in physics...
He does go on a diatribe about sensitivity being misleading because one needs to take impedance and frequency into account...well known to most experienced audiophiles but I don't think he says it is wrong to focus on flat frequency response at the expense of ease of drive. Padding sensitivity ratings is also nothing new...all one had to do is read Stereophile for the last 30 years to know this...
The way I read it he is looking at the high sensitivity/low power amp as a fad that will pass like others and it is resulting in many manufacturers to exaggerate their sensitivity claims to catch those who want to be part of that fad. What he fails to look at here is the history of audio. Audio started as ultra high sensitivity speakers with high impedance...mostly out of necessity and then other trends later took over, mostly domestic suitability concerns, that moved away from large, sensitive speakers. The transistor hastened the decline. However, what is old is new again and horns have regained popularity, at least in Europe, because frankly they sound more interesting and mostly driven by tube amps...because well they sound more interesting too.
I also find it ridiculous that he uses Kevin Scott to essentially slam 'many' SETs and suggests one is better off with a SS amp on their 100dB + horns. Kevin Scott would not agree with this I can tell you from several discussions I have had with him. He is a believer in SETs or at worst PP Class A triode amps. Never seen him using a SS amp ever. So, RG taking him horribly out of context to make some kind of dubious swipe at SET amps. Despite the fact that you and some other AG owners use Itron, the vast majority of AG owners and horns in general don't use any kind of SS amp on their horns...except maybe bass modules. I also find it interesting that now there are a very large number of Itron based AG speakers on the used/demo market...I didn't know anyone who used AG with their own SS amps from the past either....
Space will always keep their absolute numbers lower than stand mount speakers but for serious aficionados of audio they will continue to fascinate. It is no surprise the Japanese kept the old Altec/JBL/Tannoy horn speakers alive through the 'dark ages' of audio...they cared more about sound than aesthetics. It is no surprise that a lot of the SET movement started again in Japan for the same reason. RG is clearly not taking this larger view into his perspective and why his understanding of the whole horn/SET phenomenon is so flawed.
Elliot G.
Dealer - Bending Wave
I do think that speakers that are difficult to drive aren't usually speakers I like the sound of however the inverse is not always true.
I believe that a speaker that is easier to drive has more headroom and usually can do the entire dynamic scale much better than hard to drive speakers . HTD ( hard to drive) generally lack dynamic expression and at times you keep trying to play them louder and louder and they never get you to where you want to go.
I also believe that not all horn speakers are created equal and one needs to not drink the sensitivity Kool-Aid
Göbel specifies the Divin Marquis's sensitivity as 92dB/W/m; my estimate was a little lower, at a still-high 89.5dB(B)/2.83V/m. The Divin Marquis's impedance is specified as 4 ohms with a minimum value of 3.4 ohms at 95Hz. The impedance magnitude (fig.1, solid trace) remains between 4 and 6 ohms for almost the entire audioband, with a minimum value of 2.9 ohms between 83Hz and 99Hz. The electrical phase angle (dashed trace) is generally low, but there is also a current-hungry combination of 5 ohms and a phase angle of –45° at 26Hz. I used the formula in a 1994 JAES paper by Eric Benjamin to calculate what UK writer Keith Howard has called the "equivalent peak dissipation resistance" (EPDR, footnote 1). The Divin Marquis has minimum EPDRs of 1.77 ohms at 25Hz and 1.53 ohms between 53Hz and 57Hz. Though the EPDR is close to 4 ohms in the midrange and treble, this Göbel loudspeaker will work best with amplifiers that are comfortable driving loads below 4 ohms.
Based on this, the Goebel is really an 86dB speaker referenced to a 1 watt/8 ohm load. it is drawing nearly 2 watts to get to 89.5dB based on a 4 ohm impedance.
Kind of exactly what RG was talking about...the 92dB rating is simply false.
I don't think a speaker needs to be a horn-type to meet Roy's criteria. I don't think Roy thinks this either as several of the speakers he mentions are "box-type". I would consider speakers that are 93-98 dB efficient as "high efficiency". If this is a "real" efficiency that is adjusted for impedance.
Goebel speakers easily meet Roy's criteria. The Noblesse is 95dB efficient with a relatively simple crossover and is easy to drive. And to me, this shows in how it sounds.
Goebel speakers easily meet Roy's criteria. The Noblesse is 95dB efficient with a relatively simple crossover and is easy to drive. And to me, this shows in how it sounds.
Hornsolutions Swen
Well-Known Member
There have been many interesting remarks in the recent comments, and from my own experience I can agree with quite a few of them.
In practice, technical specifications often look very different from what is written on paper. Take efficiency, for example: it is almost always “optimistically adjusted” upwards by 3–6 dB. Or consider the quoted lower cutoff frequency, which is frequently based on convenient agreements between manufacturers. A loudspeaker that reaches 28 Hz at –6 dB is still advertised as having a 28 Hz cutoff — which is, frankly, quite misleading.
Things become even more questionable when it comes to phase measurements, group delay (which in my view is far more important than most of the other numbers), and distortion figures such as K2 and K3.
Ultimately, anyone who makes purchasing decisions solely on the basis of technical specifications has only themselves to blame. The sensible approach is to book a listening session and hear the actual performance.
Measurements are invaluable during development — but they are of limited relevance to the listener, and even less so to the reviewer.
In practice, technical specifications often look very different from what is written on paper. Take efficiency, for example: it is almost always “optimistically adjusted” upwards by 3–6 dB. Or consider the quoted lower cutoff frequency, which is frequently based on convenient agreements between manufacturers. A loudspeaker that reaches 28 Hz at –6 dB is still advertised as having a 28 Hz cutoff — which is, frankly, quite misleading.
Things become even more questionable when it comes to phase measurements, group delay (which in my view is far more important than most of the other numbers), and distortion figures such as K2 and K3.
Ultimately, anyone who makes purchasing decisions solely on the basis of technical specifications has only themselves to blame. The sensible approach is to book a listening session and hear the actual performance.
Measurements are invaluable during development — but they are of limited relevance to the listener, and even less so to the reviewer.
Ibx or R80 speakers runs with 7-8 watt( e.g 300b)phantastic. Sure, you'll be not able to fill 40 sqm rooms with it, but for a normal 20 sqm it's easily enough.
P.S
My favorite is the air tight 300b with r80
It's not about loudness it is about woofer control. The SJS 300b is an excellent 8w amp with the silver nano trans and everything, and midrange is great, but with it the R80 struggles to show control on drums for black sabbath and wooly when cellos and double bass are in full swing. Possibly the higher powered SJS tha Kevin uses on the Olympian might manage it.
Perhaps not but a true 95dB and easy load is not common for a non-horn speaker. See my post above regarding Goebel, the measured sensitivity and impedance are so easy to drive…and exactly what RH was ranting about…much lower than claimed.
Elliot G.
Dealer - Bending Wave
WOW you and I agree on something , is today a holiday LOL
My issue with many low powered amplifiers is they just do not control the low end and this is particularly noticeable with speakers that have great bass. I have heard the Noblesse for example with perhaps two dozen different power amplifiers. They are rated at 95db and aren't difficult to drive however there are some very good sounding amplifiers that I have heard that just can't control and make the speaker dance. If one plays certain music, things that don't push the envelope they can sound really good however I listen to everything and I have found that in general more is better , There are of course exceptions since many high powered amps IMO don't sound great.
This is why system matching is so important. I have heard at a few shows ( i take this with a grain of salt) some very expensive and large efficient horns sound brutally bad, two of these systems in the 2 million dollar plus area. Efficient as hell sound like hell.
Science IMO is only part of the tale
This is completely incorrect to what I said. Low watt amplifiers do brilliant bass on the right great speakers. I was referring to the R80 example only
Elliot G.
Dealer - Bending Wave
The R80 struggles with lower power on larger rooms…it is only about 88dB or so. The Auditorium series is at least low 90s and easy load…I think they sound great as well…but as you say, more suited to a smaller room with reduced scale music.
The R80 is a decidedly more difficult speaker than anything LV has previously built. It was clear in Munich how it struggled with the SJS amps at peaks in the music. Not sure why he made a much lower sensitivity speaker, despite being larger, but he did.
Make a visit here. Then you will see how well it works.
Living Voice IBX-R80 - Standlautsprecher - Pippy Oak | Pippy Oak | Living-Voice-IBX-R80-014
Die Living Voice IBX-R80 ist das neue Topmodell der Avatar Serie.Hersteller:Living Voice, Long Eaton, Derbyshire UK, NG10 4QE, England, Tel : +44 (0)115 9733222 Verantwortliche Person für die EU:In der EU ansässiger Wirtschaftsbeteiligter, der sicherstel…
www.loftsound.de
Make a visit here. Then you will see how well it works.
Living Voice IBX-R80 - Standlautsprecher - Pippy Oak | Pippy Oak | Living-Voice-IBX-R80-014
Die Living Voice IBX-R80 ist das neue Topmodell der Avatar Serie.Hersteller:Living Voice, Long Eaton, Derbyshire UK, NG10 4QE, England, Tel : +44 (0)115 9733222 Verantwortliche Person für die EU:In der EU ansässiger Wirtschaftsbeteiligter, der sicherstel…
I already visited Kevin and heard it properly I don’t report without proper listening and audition
How is that supposed to work? The elipticor driver 21we/8542 have 92db/1 watt. Where comes the 4db drop? You'll have to explain that to me.
P.S
By the way one of best midbass driver in the world for me
The tweeter have 97db i think conservative around~ 93-94db speaker overall efficiency.
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