The End Of A 35 Year Journey ---Zellaton -The Reference Ultra Final Frontier

[Steve Williams]

I've posted so many times in this forum that the love of music and sharing have, for me, produced a life time of long lasting friendships from all over the world. So it was yesterday when I hosted two great guys from Cincinnati who took time out of their vacation to pay a visit. It was to have been a 2 hour visit and blossomed to over 4 hours such that they missed their train back to San Diego. Not knowing what their likes in music were I queued up a play list that I enjoy and sheepishly asked when we made our way to my room, what kind of music they liked. As soon as they told me I knew I was in and I'm so glad they had fun

I always worry about my being the king of hyperbole that I always enjoy foreign ears giving their thoughts. I feel that these Zellaton speakers are well broken in now and Im happy they enjoyed it. All I can say is that these are very special speakers and I have no idea the physics of their action but 9" woofers produce bass that I still wonder how it is happening but it does, without subwoofers and with my 32 wpc amps.

Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

I bet if you do a search here of posts by reputable members who own Wilson and they say the reason so many people come away from Wilson rooms at audio shows and say they didn’t like the room . The posters then remark that this is because the upper modules were set up for a taller listener. Or...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I've posted so many times in this forum that the love of music and sharing have, for me, produced a life time of long lasting friendships from all over the world. So it was yesterday when I hosted two great guys from Cincinnati who took time out of their vacation to pay a visit. It was to have been a 2 hour visit and blossomed to over 4 hours such that they missed their train back to San Diego. Not knowing what their likes in music were I queued up a play list that I enjoy and sheepishly asked when we made our way to my room, what kind of music they liked. As soon as they told me I knew I was in and I'm so glad they had fun

I always worry about my being the king of hyperbole that I always enjoy foreign ears giving their thoughts. I feel that these Zellaton speakers are well broken in now and Im happy they enjoyed it. All I can say is that these are very special speakers and I have no idea the physics of their action but 9" woofers produce bass that I still wonder how it is happening but it does, without subwoofers and with my 32 wpc amps.

Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

I bet if you do a search here of posts by reputable members who own Wilson and they say the reason so many people come away from Wilson rooms at audio shows and say they didn’t like the room . The posters then remark that this is because the upper modules were set up for a taller listener. Or...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Also just to add 50cts more to the topic, which I refer to as "keep it simple!"

There are definitely some superb speakers out there that are truly tops! Wilson, Rockport, Genesis, YG Acoustics, V-S, and so on, then there are a few that have really thought about the design. How can the speakers interact with the room the best way possible, so lets make it possible for the owner to adjust, and off they go! Adjustments all over the joint... drivers in separate modules, infinite cross-over controls, controls on the back, controls on the sides, and these adjustments are endless, to the point that you would have to adjust & re-adjust for nearly every track! The recorded signal itself is not in its purest form. There's no such thing as the perfect signal. Lets say, that it was recorded live perhaps, then goes through a major processing chain of events that completely alters the original form. So, why bother with all these adjustments? Oh! because we just spent over 200grand and the system is very capable of reproducing the original event...??? Uh, no such thing maties, it doesn't exist!

My philosophy and motto has and will always be, "keep the damn thing simple!" You'll hear far more of the recording itself. Oh! and Zellaton (amongst the very few) just happens to be one of those systems that is fairly simple, with hardly any adjustments, and minimal fuss, just make sure you get the positioning right! That's all.

WOOF! On ya Stevo mate.
Enjoy those finest tooons, RJ

 

[JiminGa]

Also just to add 50cts more to the topic, which I refer to as "keep it simple!"

There are definitely some superb speakers out there that are truly tops! Wilson, Rockport, Genesis, YG Acoustics, V-S, and so on, then there are a few that have really thought about the design. How can the speakers interact with the room the best way possible, so lets make it possible for the owner to adjust, and off they go! Adjustments all over the joint... drivers in separate modules, infinite cross-over controls, controls on the back, controls on the sides, and these adjustments are endless, to the point that you would have to adjust & re-adjust for nearly every track! The recorded signal itself is not in its purest form. There's no such thing as the perfect signal. Lets say, that it was recorded live perhaps, then goes through a major processing chain of events that completely alters the original form. So, why bother with all these adjustments? Oh! because we just spent over 200grand and the system is very capable of reproducing the original event...??? Uh, no such thing maties, it doesn't exist!

My philosophy and motto has and will always be, "keep the damn thing simple!" You'll hear far more of the recording itself. Oh! and Zellaton (amongst the very few) just happens to be one of those systems that is fairly simple, with hardly any adjustments, and minimal fuss, just make sure you get the positioning right! That's all.

WOOF! On ya Stevo mate.
Enjoy those finest tooons, RJ

Simpler is almost always better. Every adjustment is another opportunity for introducing error.

 

[microstrip]

Simpler is almost always better.

Unfortunately I do not find it to be true in this hobby, Steve´s system is an example of it - it is extremely complex.

Every adjustment is another opportunity for introducing error.

Yes. But we all assume that the high-end is not risk free and adjustments are 90% of it.

 

[JiminGa]

Unfortunately I do not find it to be true in this hobby, Steve´s system is an example of it - it is extremely complex.



Yes. But we all assume that the high-end is not risk free and adjustments are 90% of it.

lets just agree to disagree. Thoroughly explaining my thoughts on this subject would take an entire thread.

 

[Steve Williams]

Unfortunately I do not find it to be true in this hobby, Steve´s system is an example of it - it is extremely complex.



Yes. But we all assume that the high-end is not risk free and adjustments are 90% of it.

I think RJ Bigdog was referring to the Zellaton speakers and the simplicity to set up. I agree that the other parts of my system have taken me decades to get to where it is today

 

[thedudeabides]

How refreshing (and lack of mental angst) to have a speaker, get them in the correct position, and not worry about how they sound off axis if you change your listening position. Or what they might sound like if I make a minor toe in adjustment or maybe move my seat a little or pull the speakers out a touch or maybe change the vertical angle just a hair. I call that Freedom. What a wonderful thing.

 

[Iamrael]

Simpler is almost always better. Every adjustment is another opportunity for introducing error.

I’m not arguing with the overall sentiment but adjustment can also be an opportunity to correct.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

How refreshing (and lack of mental angst) to have a speaker, get them in the correct position, and not worry about how they sound off axis if you change your listening position. Or what they might sound like if I make a minor toe in adjustment or maybe move my seat a little or pull the speakers out a touch or maybe change the vertical angle just a hair. I call that Freedom. What a wonderful thing.

That's exactly what I'm referring to!

Funny thing, it took a simple mind to figure out what I was referring to in the first place! ...and all those complex minds .... well, couldn't quite get it. It's far too complex.

Correction, adjustments, especially with dsp, servo controls, side, rear, and even under the butt controls... drivers mounted in separate modules, adjustable to the N'th degree... it's never ending!
*Note- controls on subs or electronics gear is helpful!*
Seriously maties, the original source signal isn't even recorded in its purest form to begin with! I've always found, speaker systems with added controls to the n'th level get only half things right, whiles the other half is way out of whack, simply because far too many adjustments. The ones that proved to be more neutral, were the systems with the same driver materials, open baffle / less cabinets or panel types, with hardly any control gizmo's. They performed with far greater Fidelity, instruments sounded like real instrument, where you could see into the music, and most of all enjoy the fine level of musicality, without having to adjust & fine tune every damn time you needed to slighty sway to the right to let out some gas...! just enjoy the music! Oh no, you can't, because first we need to "set-up" the first week then "adjust" the second week and maybe get a chance to "listen" the third week... no thanks!

To me it's far more responsive when things are simple, especially the speakers. There's no denying that. Make things more complex, and bless your musical engagement.
Woof! RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I think RJ Bigdog was referring to the Zellaton speakers and the simplicity to set up. I agree that the other parts of my system have taken me decades to get to where it is today

Correcto mundo 100 & 10% !!!

Controls & adjustments on gear is necessary to achieve greater definition, clarity, balance in freq range/spec and overall improvement in performance, without a doubt. But for crying out loud, please keep adjustments & controls on speakers to a minimum or zero IF possible. That's the hardest part in the design... many lofty ones simply cannot design a simple design! So they have to introduce controls of all sorts, plus introducing complex configs & settings causing more drama. It doesn't work for me no matter how much the damn things cost, even at a million bucks ... no thanks! Just listen to the most simple speaker systems available, zero to minimum controls, easy to set-up and enjoy tooons... you'll notice the differences from the first note onwards! It's not even funny.
Woof to that!
RJ

 

[microstrip]

How refreshing (and lack of mental angst) to have a speaker, get them in the correct position, and not worry about how they sound off axis if you change your listening position. Or what they might sound like if I make a minor toe in adjustment or maybe move my seat a little or pull the speakers out a touch or maybe change the vertical angle just a hair. I call that Freedom. What a wonderful thing.

Yes, I wrote similar things in WBF sometime ago - I was addressing the Soundlab A1Px's I own. Or describing my long past experiences in an old classic LP shop in a very large stone arched cave, where they had two Wharfedale speakers suspended in the ceiling and could move around enveloped in beautiful music without breaks.

But I also wrote why I preferred other speakers, such as the Wilson Audio XLF, addressing objective and subjective aspects of stereo in a non jocular style, my apologies.

 

[Audioarts]

As Steve elaborated, his install was relatively quick, mostly due to the nuances of his new speakers; namely extremely fast proprietary Zellaton drivers and a non ported quasi open baffle, which have a way of breathing freely in any given venue and not interacting (as) negatively with room boundaries. The reported incredible bass response speaks to these nuances as well, obviating extraneous subwoofers - and extreme to the millimeter set up. That’s not to say that Zellaton does not benefit from precise adjustments, because they certainly do - it’s just that they have a way of being so musical out of the box.

 

[gds7368]

As Steve elaborated, his install was relatively quick, mostly due to the nuances of his new speakers; namely extremely fast proprietary Zellaton drivers and a non ported quasi open baffle, which have a way of breathing freely in any given venue and not interacting (as) negatively with room boundaries. The reported incredible bass response speaks to these nuances as well, obviating extraneous subwoofers - and extreme to the millimeter set up. That’s not to say that Zellaton does not benefit from precise adjustments, because they certainly do - it’s just that they have a way of being so musical out of the box.

I just spent an afternoon with Steve and his Zellatons, and wow - these speakers are the real deal. The bass is deep, powerful, and textured enough to make subwoofers feel redundant, all while staying perfectly controlled.

Credit goes to Zellaton’s ultra-fast drivers, the quasi-open-baffle design, and Steve’s meticulous setup. And here’s the part that blew my mind: they were driven by just 32 watts of tube power, yet filled the room with effortless authority. Proof that when the engineering and setup are right, magic happens.

 

[Kbh57]

I haven’t found any reason to “fine tune” my Plural Evos, since Gideon set them up. Obviously, he knows how to make them sing, but I think these speakers do their thing with such coherence that positioning comes easy, and the Evos give you their best (which is very, very good) without stressing over minute adjustments.

I listen to a lot of blues, think John Lee Hooker, RL Burnside, et al, which benefit from speed, and tight, well controlled bass. In fact, that’s what I was doing as I was reading this thread. This wonderful music has never sounded as good in my room as it does with the Zells. The guitar riffs are fast, natural, and convey all the energy of the performance while the bass delivers plenty of thump to your chest but in an articulate, controlled way. Never even thought about adding subs, no need.

 

[Steve Williams]

The issue of Subs in a system is for me always interesting. Up until 4-5 years ago I always had a pair of JL Audio Gotham G213 in my system with the large Wilson speakers. There are many controls on these subs to integrate them with ones speakers. For me that was an exercise and a labor of love. I had the subs in so many different locations in the room and the and adjusted all of the controls in so many different ways to attempt making them blend cohesively with my speakers. I had many gifted audiophiles here who always wanted to tweak the controls just a little more but try as I might it was IMO impossible to blend those subs to be completely cohesive with my speakers. No matter how good I thought they sounded. they never disappeared . Over the years I had several audiophiles very gifted in speaker set up attempt the same. In fact two of the attendees were speaker manufacturers, (Gary Koh from Genesis, and Damon Von Schweikert and Leif Swanson from Von Schweikert). At the end of the session they looked me in the face and stated , I would be better off without the subs as they were competing with my speakers and try as I had for years in so many different ways, they were merely subs in my system that never blended cohesively but emitted deep bass. The bass was great but it was two different sounds in my room. I removed the subs and have never looked back.

I never disagree with those who feel every room must have a sub BUT I always say "go ahead and knock yourself out trying to position them and make them sound seamless in your room."....it is no mean task...especially when the subs are a different make and driver type than ones main speakers.....critical listening IMO always reveals the two sounds

When I had my Wilson speakers and using my loved Lamm ML3 (32 watt Class A DHT SET) and listening with 13" woofers and 15" subwoofer, I got deep bass but none that was visceral in nature

Along the way, my path changed and I discovered Zellaton ...my speakers have a tweeter, a 7" wide band and three 9" woofers. I pretty much expected more of the same ( and maybe even less) deep bass with these speakers BUT, as all of my guests who have been to my house to hear the Zellaton Reference Ultra have found, was that there is visceral impact that whacks you in the chest and sitting in the listening position there are some files that make your ass vibrate. This was so unexpected by me and confirmed by 100% of those who have been here, that subs in my system are totally completely unnecessary. There has been a post in another thread about the virtues of subs and suggesting it is impossible to reproduce deep bass with my amps and 9" drivers. To the naysayers, my room is always open for an audition. And the beauty of the deep bass with these speakers is the coherence and the fact that the sound is seamless with the rest of the drivers. I still remain dumb founded as to what I am hearing but the reality is, what we hear is exactly what I have articulated. Simply put, with the Reference Ultra played with my Lamm ML 3 , subs are not only unnecessary but IMO would be deemed superfluous. It's all about the integration and cohesiveness of the sound . I lived through years of fighting this notion. Adding subs certainly give you good baas, BUT it is the integration into one's system that becomes the challenge. For me that challenge simply doesnt exist. This might sound like hyperbole but come have a listen and you be the judge.

 

[Porsche]

a properly designed full range speaker should not need a sub if they are already using dual 8's or bigger drivers, I know ours dont

 

[Kbh57]

a properly designed full range speaker should not need a sub if they are already using dual 8's or bigger drivers, I know ours dont

Subs can be great if you can get them perfectly integrated- a big if- and if you need them. To my ears, subs are simply not needed with the Zells to deliver the goods.

 

[Steve Williams]

I was asked in my system blog to post some of the playlists that I have been using. I have so many but I thought I would pick some of the files I have used for years to demo not only deep bass , but coherence and integration

Here is the link

Doctor's Orders-Part Two-The New Listening Room Of Steve Williams

Steve Have you considered posting and sharing your playlist to the “High Fi Audio Partners” section of Qobuz? I love going there to find new music and to see what others are listening to. TBH many of my streaming playlists are taken from Qobus Hi-Fi Audio partners play lists amongst so many...

whatsbestforum.com

 

[JiminGa]

The issue of Subs in a system is for me always interesting. Up until 4-5 years ago I always had a pair of JL Audio Gotham G213 in my system with the large Wilson speakers. There are many controls on these subs to integrate them with ones speakers. For me that was an exercise and a labor of love. I had the subs in so many different locations in the room and the and adjusted all of the controls in so many different ways to attempt making them blend cohesively with my speakers. I had many gifted audiophiles here who always wanted to tweak the controls just a little more but try as I might it was IMO impossible to blend those subs to be completely cohesive with my speakers. No matter how good I thought they sounded. they never disappeared . Over the years I had several audiophiles very gifted in speaker set up attempt the same. In fact two of the attendees were speaker manufacturers, (Gary Koh from Genesis, and Damon Von Schweikert and Leif Swanson from Von Schweikert). At the end of the session they looked me in the face and stated , I would be better off without the subs as they were competing with my speakers and try as I had for years in so many different ways, they were merely subs in my system that never blended cohesively but emitted deep bass. The bass was great but it was two different sounds in my room. I removed the subs and have never looked back.

I never disagree with those who feel every room must have a sub BUT I always say "go ahead and knock yourself out trying to position them and make them sound seamless in your room."....it is no mean task...especially when the subs are a different make and driver type than ones main speakers.....critical listening IMO always reveals the two sounds

When I had my Wilson speakers and using my loved Lamm ML3 (32 watt Class A DHT SET) and listening with 13" woofers and 15" subwoofer, I got deep bass but none that was visceral in nature

Along the way, my path changed and I discovered Zellaton ...my speakers have a tweeter, a 7" wide band and three 9" woofers. I pretty much expected more of the same ( and maybe even less) deep bass with these speakers BUT, as all of my guests who have been to my house to hear the Zellaton Reference Ultra have found, was that there is visceral impact that whacks you in the chest and sitting in the listening position there are some files that make your ass vibrate. This was so unexpected by me and confirmed by 100% of those who have been here, that subs in my system are totally completely unnecessary. There has been a post in another thread about the virtues of subs and suggesting it is impossible to reproduce deep bass with my amps and 9" drivers. To the naysayers, my room is always open for an audition. And the beauty of the deep bass with these speakers is the coherence and the fact that the sound is seamless with the rest of the drivers. I still remain dumb founded as to what I am hearing but the reality is, what we hear is exactly what I have articulated. Simply put, with the Reference Ultra played with my Lamm ML 3 , subs are not only unnecessary but IMO would be deemed superfluous. It's all about the integration and cohesiveness of the sound . I lived through years of fighting this notion. Adding subs certainly give you good baas, BUT it is the integration into one's system that becomes the challenge. For me that challenge simply doesnt exist. This might sound like hyperbole but come have a listen and you be the judge.

Perfectly stated

 

[Al M.]

The issue of Subs in a system is for me always interesting. Up until 4-5 years ago I always had a pair of JL Audio Gotham G213 in my system with the large Wilson speakers. There are many controls on these subs to integrate them with ones speakers. For me that was an exercise and a labor of love. I had the subs in so many different locations in the room and the and adjusted all of the controls in so many different ways to attempt making them blend cohesively with my speakers. I had many gifted audiophiles here who always wanted to tweak the controls just a little more but try as I might it was IMO impossible to blend those subs to be completely cohesive with my speakers. No matter how good I thought they sounded. they never disappeared . Over the years I had several audiophiles very gifted in speaker set up attempt the same. In fact two of the attendees were speaker manufacturers, (Gary Koh from Genesis, and Damon Von Schweikert and Leif Swanson from Von Schweikert). At the end of the session they looked me in the face and stated , I would be better off without the subs as they were competing with my speakers and try as I had for years in so many different ways, they were merely subs in my system that never blended cohesively but emitted deep bass. The bass was great but it was two different sounds in my room. I removed the subs and have never looked back.

You had trouble integrating the subs because the bass of the Wilsons in that room wasn't that great. I loved your sound last year, but the bass was a weak point. You said yourself that the bass of the Zellaton (including everything else) is so much better. You need great upper bass and mid-bass to allow for good sub integration.

I also had a bit of trouble integrating my subs prior to my last acoustic changes, which was adding extra TubeTraps (and removing a carpet in exchange). The additional TubeTraps improved the upper and mid-bass from the main speakers (they hardly have an effect on the low bass and thus the subwoofers) and with that better main speaker bass the low bass of the subs integrated better.

I never disagree with those who feel every room must have a sub BUT I always say "go ahead and knock yourself out trying to position them and make them sound seamless in your room."....it is no mean task...especially when the subs are a different make and driver type than ones main speakers.....critical listening IMO always reveals the two sounds

When I had my Wilson speakers and using my loved Lamm ML3 (32 watt Class A DHT SET) and listening with 13" woofers and 15" subwoofer, I got deep bass but none that was visceral in nature

Along the way, my path changed and I discovered Zellaton ...my speakers have a tweeter, a 7" wide band and three 9" woofers. I pretty much expected more of the same ( and maybe even less) deep bass with these speakers BUT, as all of my guests who have been to my house to hear the Zellaton Reference Ultra have found, was that there is visceral impact that whacks you in the chest and sitting in the listening position there are some files that make your ass vibrate. This was so unexpected by me and confirmed by 100% of those who have been here, that subs in my system are totally completely unnecessary. There has been a post in another thread about the virtues of subs and suggesting it is impossible to reproduce deep bass with my amps and 9" drivers. To the naysayers, my room is always open for an audition. And the beauty of the deep bass with these speakers is the coherence and the fact that the sound is seamless with the rest of the drivers. I still remain dumb founded as to what I am hearing but the reality is, what we hear is exactly what I have articulated. Simply put, with the Reference Ultra played with my Lamm ML 3 , subs are not only unnecessary but IMO would be deemed superfluous. It's all about the integration and cohesiveness of the sound . I lived through years of fighting this notion. Adding subs certainly give you good baas, BUT it is the integration into one's system that becomes the challenge. For me that challenge simply doesnt exist. This might sound like hyperbole but come have a listen and you be the judge.

I would bet 100 % that subs would integrate much better with the superior bass from the Zellatons. Yet since subs are not necessary with those speakers, as you say, the issue becomes moot.