How Much Bass is Enough

[Kingrex]

The wing is definitely my first alteration. Since adding the sub, I am extremely happy with what I hear. I don't feel any desire to throw a monkey wrench into it. At the moment I see no reason to tear it apart to try other topologies. I will file the info for future use. Eventually I will bore and want to experiment.

 

[MarcelNL]

go BIG on them wings ;-)

in all directions.....low WAF but high impact!

 

[dgale]

There's no such thing as too much high-quality woofage -- unless it overloads the room.

Anticipating delivery of my second REL S/812 tomorrow. More and better woofage!

 

[LL21]

Anticipating delivery of my second REL S/812 tomorrow. More and better woofage!

Congrats! Look forward to reading all about it!

 

[Kingrex]

Anticipating delivery of my second REL S/812 tomorrow. More and better woofage!

Looks nice. 800 watts and 2 x 12. That will move some air.

 

[Kingrex]

Interesting. With the sub I am more aware warm up time of my main amp. Its takes some time for the 2 to jell. I also find every day I am backing the sub back a little. But as soon as I pull the interconnect to the sub I realize how much I am asking it to do.

Slope of 24 and 12 are quite different. 24 is faster and more curt. 12 is thicker and a little tubby.
I knocked the gain down a little more. I think I will end up lowering the crossover point to a place closer to where the speaker falls off.

Music does dictate a little of how much bass I want. Oddly I like more with classical. Less with Jazz. More with Pop. I have to revisit rock.

At the moment after 40 minites of play, I'm super pleased with a moderate level listening to Pink Martini.

 

[Kingrex]

Seat position is also critical now. The whole, the chair comes first makes more sense. Moving the chair really impacts integration and the disappearance of the sub. I don't know I buy its the first place to start. But it definitely has to be adjusted as you move the speaker and sub placement.

You also don't need to set the volume as loud to have the sense of a full playback. And again, after 40 minutes of warm up, I feel like the system has a massive increase in power. It does as the main amps are 40 watt. And I just added 250 watts. But the sense is not limited to bass. The whole of the top through midbass seems far more tight and powerful.

I wonder what will happen when I add some wings to the open baffle.

 

[AudioHR]

Interesting. With the sub I am more aware warm up time of my main amp. Its takes some time for the 2 to jell. I also find every day I am backing the sub back a little. But as soon as I pull the interconnect to the sub I realize how much I am asking it to do.

Slope of 24 and 12 are quite different. 24 is faster and more curt. 12 is thicker and a little tubby.
I knocked the gain down a little more. I think I will end up lowering the crossover point to a place closer to where the speaker falls off.

Music does dictate a little of how much bass I want. Oddly I like more with classical. Less with Jazz. More with Pop. I have to revisit rock.

At the moment after 40 minites of play, I'm super pleased with a moderate level listening to Pink Martini.

Enjoying this thread immensely, lots of good ideas.

Presently trying to integrate two REL subs with my SET and high efficiency/ sensitivity speakers. Haven't got it right yet.

Your point about music dictating how much bass you want rings true with me too. I find much the same thing as far as classical and yes probably a little less with most jazz. With pop and rock I find it very dependent on the actual recording. I think that many of these recordings, especially digital are meant to highlight the bass and when you add subs it may be a touch to much or is it? Thinking of tracks like "Looks like the End of the Road" on Alison Krauss & Union Station's Arcadia. This is basically a bluegrass band but the bass on this track is prodigious in my room, anyway, lol!

 

[AudioHR]

Interesting. With the sub I am more aware warm up time of my main amp. Its takes some time for the 2 to jell. I also find every day I am backing the sub back a little. But as soon as I pull the interconnect to the sub I realize how much I am asking it to do.

Slope of 24 and 12 are quite different. 24 is faster and more curt. 12 is thicker and a little tubby.
I knocked the gain down a little more. I think I will end up lowering the crossover point to a place closer to where the speaker falls off.

Music does dictate a little of how much bass I want. Oddly I like more with classical. Less with Jazz. More with Pop. I have to revisit rock.

At the moment after 40 minites of play, I'm super pleased with a moderate level listening to Pink Martini.

Enjoying this thread immensely, lots of good ideas.

Presently trying to integrate two REL subs with my SET and high efficiency/ sensitivity speakers. Haven't got it right yet.

Your point about music dictating how much bass you want rings true with me too. I find much the same thing as far as classical and yes probably a little less with most jazz. With pop and rock I find it very dependent on the actual recording. I think that many of these recordings, especially digital are meant to highlight the bass and when you add subs it may be a touch to much or is it? Thinking of tracks like "Looks like the end of the road" on Alison Krauss

 

[DasguteOhr]

Seat position is also critical now. The whole, the chair comes first makes more sense. Moving the chair really impacts integration and the disappearance of the sub. I don't know I buy its the first place to start. But it definitely has to be adjusted as you move the speaker and sub placement.

You also don't need to set the volume as loud to have the sense of a full playback. And again, after 40 minutes of warm up, I feel like the system has a massive increase in power. It does as the main amps are 40 watt. And I just added 250 watts. But the sense is not limited to bass. The whole of the top through midbass seems far more tight and powerful.

I wonder what will happen when I add some wings to the open baffle.

Adjusting the phase and delay is the trickiest problem with subwoofers. I've experienced this before by reversing the speaker polarity and making it sound better.
can fill holes in the frequency response It's not exactly my favorite job and can be really annoying.

 

[dgale]

With two subs placed in diagonal corners (only option for my room), should polarity for each be the same or opposite?

 

[DasguteOhr]

With two subs placed in diagonal corners (only option for my room), should polarity for each be the same or opposite?

If I understand correctly, one subwoofer is on the speaker side and the other behind you. So corners are extremely unfavorable because they create an additional 9-12 dB of sound pressure. Better would be one in the middle between your main speakers on the horizontal axis and one 1 m behind your listening position in the middle. This way the bass spreads through the room like a spherical wave. Then you at least have only few side wall reflections. Don't put the front subwoofer directly on the floor (10" up), otherwise the subwoofer and main speaker will overwhelm you with bass. Since the rear subwoofer operates 180 degrees out of phase, you minimize standing waves in the room. I hope this helps.
Exsample

 

[dgale]

If I understand correctly, one subwoofer is on the speaker side and the other behind you. So corners are extremely unfavorable because they create an additional 9-12 dB of sound pressure. Better would be one in the middle between your main speakers on the horizontal axis and one 1 m behind your listening position in the middle. This way the bass spreads through the room like a spherical wave. Then you at least have only few side wall reflections. Don't put the front subwoofer directly on the floor (10" up), otherwise the subwoofer and main speaker will overwhelm you with bass. Since the rear subwoofer operates 180 degrees out of phase, you minimize standing waves in the room. I hope this helps.
ExsampleView attachment 154645

Thanks so much.

 

[MPW]

A great deal of the frustration in setting up subs stems from trying to do it by ear. Using REW or similar software to measure the room, help choose the correct listening position with smoothest bass first, then integrating the subs, fast tracks this process. My philosophy is macro by measurement, micro by ear. Get the basics right using measurements and then fine tune with your ears. If there are low frequency anomalies in the measurements there is a very low chance that your ears will like it.

 

[Kingrex]

A great deal of the frustration in setting up subs stems from trying to do it by ear. Using REW or similar software to measure the room, help choose the correct listening position with smoothest bass first, then integrating the subs, fast tracks this process. My philosophy is macro by measurement, micro by ear. Get the basics right using measurements and then fine tune with your ears. If there are low frequency anomalies in the measurements there is a very low chance that your ears will like it.

I agree on most everything. I might disagree that the chair location is dictated by the sub. I would say the sub location is dictated by the chair.

I 100% agree, sweeps would be the way to start. I got my sub but had no software or educator to help me. So I sat with the plate amp/crossover in my lap and started dialing. Either tonight or tomorrow we are supposed to have a phone conference on how to use "Audio Tools" software to record a sweep. I will use Qobuz to find the sweep. From there we will make adjustments. Most likely also get into the EQ. So far I have that bypassed.

 

[MPW]

I agree on most everything. I might disagree that the chair location is dictated by the sub. I would say the sub location is dictated by the chair.

I 100% agree, sweeps would be the way to start. I got my sub but had no software or educator to help me. So I sat with the plate amp/crossover in my lap and started dialing. Either tonight or tomorrow we are supposed to have a phone conference on how to use "Audio Tools" software to record a sweep. I will use Qobuz to find the sweep. From there we will make adjustments. Most likely also get into the EQ. So far I have that bypassed.

To clarify, the listening position should be selected first, before dealing with subs. It is not at all dictated by the subs. Subs should be integrated after listening position with smoothest bass performance is identified. This allows the subs to integrate most easily.

 

[DasguteOhr]

REW It's like a Swiss Army knife; you can measure almost anything with it. I haven't personally tried it yet. With a sine tone burst, you can display the group delay of individual sub-ranges, for example, whether the bass lags behind the rest of the sound. So, you could use it to optimize subwoofers in a room.
Exsample

Above is the perfect input signal. Below you can see, for example, that the bass starts later and oscillates in the room at the specific frequency.

@Kingrex

Sweep with frequency mark you can find room modes easy with this

 

[Robh3606]

I agree on most everything. I might disagree that the chair location is dictated by the sub. I would say the sub location is dictated by the chair.

I 100% agree, sweeps would be the way to start. I got my sub but had no software or educator to help me. So I sat with the plate amp/crossover in my lap and started dialing. Either tonight or tomorrow we are supposed to have a phone conference on how to use "Audio Tools" software to record a sweep. I will use Qobuz to find the sweep. From there we will make adjustments. Most likely also get into the EQ. So far I have that bypassed.

Or this helps with imaging, sub integration, sweep test and much more! Delos Set-up CD Stereo and Surround

Rob

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[Lagonda]

I agree on most everything. I might disagree that the chair location is dictated by the sub. I would say the sub location is dictated by the chair.

I 100% agree, sweeps would be the way to start. I got my sub but had no software or educator to help me. So I sat with the plate amp/crossover in my lap and started dialing. Either tonight or tomorrow we are supposed to have a phone conference on how to use "Audio Tools" software to record a sweep. I will use Qobuz to find the sweep. From there we will make adjustments. Most likely also get into the EQ. So far I have that bypassed.

Audiotools actually has its own tone generator and can play all sorts of noise.

 

[Kingrex]

I was told we will also take impulse response. Not sure if thats for phase or what.